For or against the GP series.?

[steve roberts]

7 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

I see alot of him over the years and  i never rated him, he was a good gater and he had top notch aquipment but he was never an elite rider.Also see him quite a bit at Reading and his team riding skills were non existent  often on the best gates with the lesser team mate.

His period at Oxford was also the same time as Gordon Kennett so I was fortunate in witnessing the development of both during their early years in the British League. Gordon was a far better rider in my opinion but what held him back was his inability to gate during his formative years. He becme more consistant as his "Star" rose but he eventually returned to the National League when he began to struggle whereas John's career was somewhat longer in the top flight more down to his gating if anything else.

[Sidney the robin]

5 hours ago, BL65 said:

Although John Davis may not have been considered an 'elite' rider, he nevertheless had a few notable achievements in meetings featuring top riders of his day:
- Gained a World Team Cup winner’s medal in the 1977 Final in Poland, scoring 6 from two rides against Poland, Sweden and Czechoslovakia.
- Won the 1978 Ullevi round of the Master of Speedway GP, ahead of Peter Collins, Olsen, Lee, Simmons, Jessup, Crump, Kennett, Mauger, Michanek, Sanders and Louis.
- Won The Laurels in 1978 at Wimbledon, against Kennett, Simmons, Crump, Jancarz, Ross and Jessup.
- Won the 1980 Daily Express Spring Classic at Wimbledon, against a line-up including Peter Collins, Schwartz, Nielsen, Ross, Penhall, Kennett, Jessup, Lee, Louis and Simmons.
- Won The Laurels in 1981 at Wimbledon, against Chris Morton, Les and Peter Collins, Simmons, Schwartz, Kennett, Kelly Moran and Ross.
- Won the prestigious Golden Helmet of Pardubice in 1984, beating King and Stancl in the final.

I see him win the Manpower meeting at Reading ( Penhall rode ) in 1978? he was good  awesome that night .

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

I see him win the Manpower meeting at Reading ( Penhall rode ) in 1978? he was good  awesome that night .

..and the Geoff Curtis Memorial Meeting when he beat both Dag Lovaas and Tommy Jansson in a run-off after they had all scored 14 points.

[fatface]

7 hours ago, BL65 said:

Although John Davis may not have been considered an 'elite' rider, he nevertheless had a few notable achievements in meetings featuring top riders of his day:
- Gained a World Team Cup winner’s medal in the 1977 Final in Poland, scoring 6 from two rides against Poland, Sweden and Czechoslovakia.
- Won the 1978 Ullevi round of the Master of Speedway GP, ahead of Peter Collins, Olsen, Lee, Simmons, Jessup, Crump, Kennett, Mauger, Michanek, Sanders and Louis.
- Won The Laurels in 1978 at Wimbledon, against Kennett, Simmons, Crump, Jancarz, Ross and Jessup.
- Won the 1980 Daily Express Spring Classic at Wimbledon, against a line-up including Peter Collins, Schwartz, Nielsen, Ross, Penhall, Kennett, Jessup, Lee, Louis and Simmons.
- Won The Laurels in 1981 at Wimbledon, against Chris Morton, Les and Peter Collins, Simmons, Schwartz, Kennett, Kelly Moran and Ross.
- Won the prestigious Golden Helmet of Pardubice in 1984, beating King and Stancl in the final.

Thanks for that. I must say, I don't dismiss Davis as a nobody. He was decent enough and actually, I'd have him down as someone who got the maximum from his ability. But when I see that list, its main thrust is that he could do well at Wimbledon. That doesn't mean he was an elite rider. 

The Master of Speedway is probably the best of that list. The 1977 WTC, well, that was a time when England's biggest opposition would be England B or England C. The Czech Golden Helmet is also a great one to win, but was he beating a keyed up Nielsen, Gundersen, Sanders, Knudsen, Moran, Morton, Wigg etc? Stancl doesn't quite cut it for elite. 

[chunky]

There were others. Davis won the Sussex Open Championship at Eastbourne in 1978 (ahead of Kennett, Crump, and Sanders), the Artdeans Trophy at Swindon in 1979 (ahead of Crump and Autrey), and the Yorkshire Open at Sheffield in 1977. He won that with a maximum from riders like Jessup, Wyer, Lee, Coliins, and Olsen.

Edited September 2, 2021 by chunky

[chunky]

5 hours ago, falcace said:

The Czech Golden Helmet is also a great one to win, but was he beating a keyed up Nielsen, Gundersen, Sanders, Knudsen, Moran, Morton, Wigg etc? Stancl doesn't quite cut it for elite. 

With the Czech Golden Helmet, Stancl really DOES cut it for "elite"! Five-time winner, runner-up twice, and third three times. He was beating Mauger, Olsen , Lee, and the like pretty regularly in that! I can't find a lineup for the 1984 event, but I''m pretty sure there would have been some big names in there. It really wasn't an easy thing to win - particularly when Stancl was in the field.

Edited September 2, 2021 by chunky

[steve roberts]

8 hours ago, falcace said:

Thanks for that. I must say, I don't dismiss Davis as a nobody. He was decent enough and actually, I'd have him down as someone who got the maximum from his ability. But when I see that list, its main thrust is that he could do well at Wimbledon. That doesn't mean he was an elite rider. 

The Master of Speedway is probably the best of that list. The 1977 WTC, well, that was a time when England's biggest opposition would be England B or England C. The Czech Golden Helmet is also a great one to win, but was he beating a keyed up Nielsen, Gundersen, Sanders, Knudsen, Moran, Morton, Wigg etc? Stancl doesn't quite cut it for elite. 

Spot on with that analysis. It's fair to say that John used all of his limited ability to the maximum (whereas some with massive ability tended to under achieve allowing outside influences and distractions to effect their performances) and produced some great results on tracks not best suited to his style. He openly admits that he preferred the bigger tracks and hated the likes of Eastbourne. I often thought it odd that after requesting a move from Oxford he ended up at another small track down the road at Reading?

Edited September 2, 2021 by steve roberts

[Sidney the robin]

3 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Spot on with that analysis. It's fair to say that John used all of his limited ability to the maximum (whereas some with massive ability tended to under achieve allowing outside influences and distractions to effect their performances) and produced some great results on tracks not best suited to his style. He openly admits that he preferred the bigger tracks and hated the likes of Eastbourne. I often thought it odd that after requesting a move from Oxford he ended up at another small track down the road at Reading?

As Chunky said when Davis was good he was very very good my real memory of him though was his gating.It would be interesting to know how many races he lost when being in winning positions quite a few  i would imagine he always seemed to eventually drift out wide and leave gaps.But he did maximise his ability and had a great career alot of riders would of bitten your arm off to have the career he had.

 

[steve roberts]

22 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

As Chunky said when Davis was good he was very very good my real memory of him though was his gating.It would be interesting to know how many races he lost when being in winning positions quite a few  i would imagine he always seemed to eventually drift out wide and leave gaps.But he did maximise his ability and had a great career alot of riders would of bitten your arm off to have the career he had.

 

...something that Malcolm Simmons commented upon. When he took John "under his wing" during their time at Wimbledon in 1984 it's something that he tried to correct suggesting that John ride his own race rather than continually looking behind him. Always brought great personal pleasure to me when Gordon Kennett (that name again) would often be out gated by aforementioned Davis only for Gordon to continually harass him as John rode wider and wider allowing Gordon to slip thru' winning the race!

[Sidney the robin]

18 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...something that Malcolm Simmons commented upon. When he took John "under his wing" during their time at Wimbledon in 1984 it's something that he tried to correct suggesting that John ride his own race rather than continually looking behind him. Always brought great personal pleasure to me when Gordon Kennett (that name again) would often be out gated by aforementioned Davis only for Gordon to continually harass him as John rode wider and wider allowing Gordon to slip thru' winning the race!

It certainly was an art to be able to hold the line Steve, Martin Ashby at the Abbey was superb at this.If he didn’t gate he would bide his time drift out wide then cut underneath in one sweet motion it looked easy it was far from it though.Also with Davis with him he never seemed to go that great at Hyde Rd that puzzled me with his aquipment. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Sidney the robin

[steve roberts]

9 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

It certainly was an art to be able to hold the line Steve, Martin Ashby at the Abbey was superb at this.If he didn’t gate he would bide his time drift out wide then cut underneath in one sweet motion it looked easy it was far from it though.Also with Davis with he never seemed to go that great at Hyde Rd that puzzled me with his aquipment. 

My abiiding memory of Martin was missing the gate and down the back straight lining himself up to pass his opponent on the third and forth bend hugging the white line. Unfortunately white line riding is a rarity nowadays with superfast charges which require middle track outside surges. Perhaps one reason why team riding became more of a rarity over the years?

[Ovalman]

7 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

It certainly was an art to be able to hold the line Steve, Martin Ashby at the Abbey was superb at this.If he didn’t gate he would bide his time drift out wide then cut underneath in one sweet motion it looked easy it was far from it though.Also with Davis with him he never seemed to go that great at Hyde Rd that puzzled me with his aquipment. 

As Briggo said of Ashby " at one time he was the best rider in world but didn't realise It!".

[steve roberts]

6 minutes ago, auntie doris said:

As Briggo said of Ashby " at one time he was the best rider in world but didn't realise It!".

...not according to Bwitcher! As I pointed out some years ago Martin was riding high in the averages in 1968 and could very well have sneaked a shock World Final win or podium place if his promoter had been more accomodating.

[Ovalman]

1 minute ago, steve roberts said:

...not according to Bwitcher! As I pointed out some years ago Martin was riding high in the averages in 1968 and could very well have sneaked a shock World Final win or podium place if his promoter had been more accomodating.

Crash was perhaps too quiet and modest. I called into his workshop in Marlborough about 6 years ago and asked for his autograph to send to my bruv in Australia."You want my autograph?" he said, looking surprised, and duly obliged. Nice bloke. Was on the Abbey terraces for years until ill-health curtailed that.

[Sidney the robin]

7 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

My abiiding memory of Martin was missing the gate and down the back straight lining himself up to pass his opponent on the third and forth bend hugging the white line. Unfortunately white line riding is a rarity nowadays with superfast charges which require middle track outside surges. Perhaps one reason why team riding became more of a rarity over the years?

I think that run off with the great Willy in 1975 said it all Steve he should of been harder Bernie certainly was in 1972.? Ashby rarely gets mentioned but he was a terrific rider to watch every Saturday he had great skill.It saddened me how he was treated by Swindon in 1980 but he had the last laugh by winning the league and bonus with Reading that year.

[Sidney the robin]

6 minutes ago, auntie doris said:

Crash was perhaps too quiet and modest. I called into his workshop in Marlborough about 6 years ago and asked for his autograph to send to my bruv in Australia."You want my autograph?" he said, looking surprised, and duly obliged. Nice bloke. Was on the Abbey terraces for years until ill-health curtailed that.

Still see him there  sometimes Doris , i  also got him to sign loads of stuff for me he was embarrassed don’t know why  a real nice guy.When i look back Martin with Kilb, Crumpie and Leigh  they were riders we all took for granted really they don’t come around that often Doyley now has joined them another great.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Sidney the robin

[Ovalman]

Just now, Sidney the robin said:

Still see him there  sometimes Doris , i  also got him to sign loads of stuff for me he was embarrassed don’t know why  a real nice guy.When I look back Martin with Kilb, Crumpie and Leigh  were riders we all took for granted really they don’t come around that often Doyley now has joined them another great.

Is he still running the workshop? Some fantastic Swindon number 1's in that lot. Doyley the only one to have won League title 3 times for the Robins. Shame the other 2 Aussies never won it.

[Sidney the robin]

3 minutes ago, auntie doris said:

Is he still running the workshop? Some fantastic Swindon number 1's in that lot. Doyley the only one to have won League title 3 times for the Robins. Shame the other 2 Aussies never won it.

I don’t think so? he did alot for Jan Andersson over the years very good with engines.When you look back Swindon really did have some poor teams 1983 has to be the worst but if never bothered me the winning bit.If you look back Doris you have seen Briggo, Broady, Kilb, Crash, Autrey ( 1980) Crumpie (snr) , Petersen, Nilsen,  Crump ( jnr) Darcy , Doyley we have been very fortunate.

[Ovalman]

8 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I don’t think so? he did alot for Jan Andersson over the years very good with engines.When you look back Swindon really did have some poor teams 1983 has to be the worst but if never bothered me the winning bit.If you look back Doris you have seen Briggo, Broady, Kilb, Crash, Autrey ( 1980) Crumpie (snr) , Petersen, Nilsen,  Crump ( jnr) Darcy , Doyley we have been very fortunate.

Didnt go for most of 70s, 80s, 90s, but fortunate enough to see Briggo, Broady, Ashby, Kilby, Adams, Doyley, Darcy, even Zagar and Andersen in Robins racesuits.

[steve roberts]

25 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I don’t think so? he did alot for Jan Andersson over the years very good with engines.When you look back Swindon really did have some poor teams 1983 has to be the worst but if never bothered me the winning bit.If you look back Doris you have seen Briggo, Broady, Kilb, Crash, Autrey ( 1980) Crumpie (snr) , Petersen, Nilsen,  Crump ( jnr) Darcy , Doyley we have been very fortunate.

A bit odd that, Sid, that Swindon didn't achieve more on the team front considering having many top riders turn out for them down the years? Perhaps the promotion wasn't that bothered and the incentive was often lacking?