For or against the GP series.?

[norbold]

2 hours ago, customhouseregular said:

Scenario: Szmarzlik and Laguta get injured before the next GP and take no further part this year. Lindgren or Sayfutdinov wins the title. Did the best rider win, is he a worthy World Champion? Luck has always played a part. Sczakiel was lucky Mauger fell, Muller was lucky the final was in Germany and had the track prepared to his liking.

Jason Doyle 2016, Leon Madsen 2019.

[chunky]

18 minutes ago, norbold said:

Jason Doyle 2016, Leon Madsen 2019.

Collins 1977...

[norbold]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

Collins 1977...

Mornington Crescent.

[chunky]

6 minutes ago, norbold said:

Mornington Crescent.

I'm sorry, I haven't a clue...

[Sidney the robin]

12 hours ago, keepturningleft said:

GP's, without a doubt.

I saw 3 world finals, Wembley '69 and Odsal '85 & 90, great occasions all,  but GP's are a much better way of doing things.

Besides we get to have a magnificent big time occasion every single year at Cardiff. Previously the big night only came to the UK once every 5 years or so.

Some are moaning about a likely 2 horse race this year between Laguta and Zmarzlik, but honestly what's not to like. Zmarzlik is incredible to watch, a hundred times more spectacular than Mauger, Briggs, Olsen and many others put together and he pulls off moves you would never have see any of those afore mentioned riders make.

 

More spectacular than Briggo really ? and by the way they have 13 world titles between them hardly a bunch of also rans.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Sidney the robin

[steve roberts]

16 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

More spectacular than Briggo really ? and by the way they have 13 world titles between them hardly a bunch of also rans.

I find it almost impossible to compare riders from different eras where bikes and/or tracks were very different. It would be interesting seeing a young tearaway on a JAP bike where, by all accounts, they required severe control handling because all they wanted to do was drag you to the fence. Hanging off the back of a bike was almost unheard of although the likes of Peter Craven came closest.

[OveFundinFan]

I agree Zmarzlik is more spectacular in his riding style then Fundin, Moore, Briggs, Craven and Knutson. But I prefer the riding style of those 5 (and others of there era) then Zmarzlik. The 5 made winning look easier, though I sure it wasn’t. I do wish development of laid down high revving engines had not happened. I still prefer to watch racing from the 70’s

[norbold]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

More spectacular than Briggo really ? and by the way they have 13 world titles between them hardly a bunch of also rans.

Quite, Sidney. Not to mention Peter Craven - you could hardly accuse him of not being spectacular. And then there were the likes of Sverre Harrfeldt and Christer Lofqvist. Each generation has had its share of thrill makers, going right back to 'Cyclone' Billy Lamont, whose on-track antics earned him the nickname, "The Man With a Month to Live!"

[Split]

19 hours ago, customhouseregular said:

The old system had its flaws certainly but I still preferred it. Yes, some top guys lost out and some no-hopers made it to the final, but generally the cream rose to the top. Think Mauger, Briggs, Moore, Craven etc. I don’t know if Knutsson would have won over a 10-12 round GP series. He was good enough certainly.

It's well known that nerves often got the better of Björn and without the pressure of having to do it at a one-off meeting, it might have worked in his favour.

[keepturningleft]

No intention to disparage the great riders from the past, but few, if any people on this forum ever saw Craven ride and there is precious little action footage of him, so we can't really make a judgemental comparison other than listening to other people's reminiscences. 

 

 

[bill94d]

12 minutes ago, keepturningleft said:

No intention to disparage the great riders from the past, but few, if any people on this forum ever saw Craven ride and there is precious little action footage of him, so we can't really make a judgemental comparison other than listening to other people's reminiscences. 

 

 

I only saw Craven ride once, and that was on the terrible night in Edinburgh. I went to his memorial service in 2003, at Liverpool Cathedral out of respect for the man. In his eulogy Ove Fundin openly admitted he would not have won as many titles as he did had Peter lived.  Bartosz Smarslik pushes the boundaries. Perhaps he can with air fences and modern helmets and padding, but these boys had none of that. I hope he stays serious accident free because he is exciting. RIP Peter Craven.

Edited August 30, 2021 by bill94d
spelling

[lbw]

I went to Bradford '85 and it was a fantastic spectacle but only half or 2 thirds of the riders in one off world finals were of the required level. That's why the BLRC was often referred to as having a stronger field than a world final.

The GP's are better although I would have the winner of each of the top 6 country's national title (Poland, Russia, Australia, GB, Sweden & Denmark) to qualify for the full series. If the national champion is already in the GP then that place should revert to a wildcard pick from any nation.

This could also give more encouragement to riders who don't ride in their national championship to come back 

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, keepturningleft said:

No intention to disparage the great riders from the past, but few, if any people on this forum ever saw Craven ride and there is precious little action footage of him, so we can't really make a judgemental comparison other than listening to other people's reminiscences. 

 

 

Surely you acknowledge that Peter was a superb talent  i never see  him  ride but my uncle did on numerous occasions and he raved about him so that was good anough for me.Bartosz i love watching him ride but to mention those other guys ( eras apart ) not even worth considering great riders would adjust to any era in my view put the great Tom Farndon in that mix as well.

[lbw]

I loved watching Gerald Short , give him some boards and he would ride 'em!

He'd be great riding the Waves of Wimborne Road with a 'surf' board!  

[norbold]

2 hours ago, keepturningleft said:

No intention to disparage the great riders from the past, but few, if any people on this forum ever saw Craven ride and there is precious little action footage of him, so we can't really make a judgemental comparison other than listening to other people's reminiscences. 

 

 

Absolutely correct, ktl, but then if you can't make a judgemental comparison, why say, "Zmarzlik is incredible to watch, a hundred times more spectacular than Mauger, Briggs, Olsen and many others put together and he pulls off moves you would never have see any of those afore mentioned riders make"?

I saw Craven ride many times so I feel well qualified to make that comparison.

[OveFundinFan]

59 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Surely you acknowledge that Peter was a superb talent  i never see  him  ride but my uncle did on numerous occasions and he raved about him so that was good anough for me.Bartosz i love watching him ride but to mention those other guys ( eras apart ) not even worth considering great riders would adjust to any era in my view put the great Tom Farndon in that mix as well.

Peter did indeed have a great talent. We know his nickname was “the wizard of balance”. I think he was 5’ 2”, so small. We see many photos of him with his head as low as the left handlebar. Not always his riding style, more when he was riding the inside line. Remember that in the 50’s/60’s handlebars were wide and often upswept. This made it the more incredible his style of riding. Getting his head down low would put centre of gravity low, which no doubt helped his balance.  

Whilst a great talent, and one of the famous five ( Knutson came good 1959/60), his performance in the world finals was perhaps not as consistent as the others. For example 1959 9th, 1961 10th, and 1963 10th (his last world final). Fundin, Briggs, Moore and Craven were pretty much same age…. All born 1933 or 1934, so they were all rose to their peak at the same time, and about to start their decline (the Mauger years staring in 1968). Whether Peter would have won any more world titles we will never know, but I would say it was not a cert.                                             

I never heard Fundins eulogy at Peters funeral, but I don’t understand where it is said Ove said he would not have won as many world titles as he did if Peter had lived. Ove won in 1963, Peters last final (Wembley). when he finished 10th, and Ove only won one more world title, 1967, meaning Fundin had already won four.  This is taking nothing way from Peters record, it’s just a fact.
 

[Sidney the robin]

1 minute ago, OveFundinFan said:

Peter did indeed have a great talent. We know his nickname was “the wizard of balance”. I think he was 5’ 2”, so small. We see many photos of him with his head as low as the left handlebar. Not always his riding style, more when he was riding the inside line. Remember that in the 50’s/60’s handlebars were wide and often upswept. This made it the more incredible his style of riding. Getting his head down low would put centre of gravity low, which no doubt helped his balance.  

Whilst a great talent, and one of the famous five ( Knutson came good 1959/60), his performance in the world finals was perhaps not as consistent as the others. For example 1959 9th, 1961 10th, and 1963 10th (his last world final). Fundin, Briggs, Moore and Craven were pretty much same age…. All born 1933 or 1934, so they were all rose to their peak at the same time, and about to start their decline (the Mauger years staring in 1968). Whether Peter would have won any more world titles we will never know, but I would say it was not a cert.                                             

I never heard Fundins eulogy at Peters funeral, but I don’t understand where it is said Ove said he would not have won as many world titles as he did if Peter had lived. Ove won in 1963, Peters last final (Wembley). when he finished 10th, and Ove only won one more world title, 1967, meaning Fundin had already won four.  This is taking nothing way from Peters record, it’s just a fact.
 

A real talent Craven in a terrific era great rider looking back Ove but Barry did very well to  win  the titles he did  the opposition was sublime really tough.

[bill94d]

29 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

Peter did indeed have a great talent. We know his nickname was “the wizard of balance”. I think he was 5’ 2”, so small. We see many photos of him with his head as low as the left handlebar. Not always his riding style, more when he was riding the inside line. Remember that in the 50’s/60’s handlebars were wide and often upswept. This made it the more incredible his style of riding. Getting his head down low would put centre of gravity low, which no doubt helped his balance.  

Whilst a great talent, and one of the famous five ( Knutson came good 1959/60), his performance in the world finals was perhaps not as consistent as the others. For example 1959 9th, 1961 10th, and 1963 10th (his last world final). Fundin, Briggs, Moore and Craven were pretty much same age…. All born 1933 or 1934, so they were all rose to their peak at the same time, and about to start their decline (the Mauger years staring in 1968). Whether Peter would have won any more world titles we will never know, but I would say it was not a cert.                                             

I never heard Fundins eulogy at Peters funeral, but I don’t understand where it is said Ove said he would not have won as many world titles as he did if Peter had lived. Ove won in 1963, Peters last final (Wembley). when he finished 10th, and Ove only won one more world title, 1967, meaning Fundin had already won four.  This is taking nothing way from Peters record, it’s just a fact.
 

Please note that I quoted “titles”, not necessarily world crowns. He also said that he was the fairest rider of his time and he (Fundin) was always happy to ride outside Craven.

[chunky]

3 hours ago, PirateShip said:

I went to Bradford '85 and it was a fantastic spectacle but only half or 2 thirds of the riders in one off world finals were of the required level.

That is a point I have repeatedly made on here. I think in some of the following years, there were several finals that were equally weak.

[Sidney the robin]

4 hours ago, keepturningleft said:

No intention to disparage the great riders from the past, but few, if any people on this forum ever saw Craven ride and there is precious little action footage of him, so we can't really make a judgemental comparison other than listening to other people's reminiscences. 

 

You could say that about Tommy Price and Fred Williams but we all have a view.!,

Edited August 30, 2021 by Sidney the robin