enotian Posted August 27, 2021 Report Share Posted August 27, 2021 13 hours ago, Trees said: Where's the money coming from? Poland love Poland ... Well the idea would be that the TV rights across Britain, Sweden, Denmark and Germay (not sure what the TV situation is in Latvia) provide more income than the current individual deals on the basis that you have four/five home nations to broadcast to. With Polish riders involved you also potentially sell the rights to a Polish broadcaster. Then you have more potential to attract pan european sponsors rather than the local plumber or national brands. And hopefully, if the product is any good (best riders on the best tracks at the best stadiums) and you have a wider catchment area within only two teams in the UK the attendances increase. People still like spending money, just not on rubbish. Clearly none of these income streams are guaranteed but you can negotiate TV deals and with sponsors ahead of committing to rider contracts. The GP stars appear to want more competitive action than the Polish League offers and if the Polish authorities continue to drive down rider rates then it shouldn't be too difficult to attract these stars within a budget. Especially as you're not competing with another two leagues for their services. The opportunity for the riders would be Polish League and Euro League. If the don't accept the rates the Euro League are offering then they only have Poland. Potentially putting them at a competitive disadvantage for the SGP compared to others riding both leagues. If the riders want it and the supporters want it then there'd seem to be away to make it happen. Or you could stick your head in the sand say it's not affordable, pedal the same old tripe to an ever decreasing fan base until it is no longer sustainable. At least if you try something new there's a chance it might succeed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Skid Posted August 28, 2021 Report Share Posted August 28, 2021 18 hours ago, iainb said: Yes, I also take your point, there are 2 ways of looking at it. Lawson has already closed one club down this season with his wage demands and Plymouth already have Jason Crump and Bjarne Pedersen on their payroll. The club went bust only 5 years ago and found their level at NDL, now they're breaking the bank and probably won't even make the pay-offs (play offs) No Rider ever broke a Club, it's the stupid promoter who agrees to pay his demands that breaks the Club. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 28, 2021 Report Share Posted August 28, 2021 27 minutes ago, Lord Skid said: No Rider ever broke a Club, it's the stupid promoter who agrees to pay his demands that breaks the Club. But ultimately, it's the stupid rules dreamt up that means Promoters panic, knowing that one or two clubs have a clear advantage due to splashing the cash to the best riders, meaning therefore, that they will possibly get a fair few home hammerings which could destroy their business as fans stay away.. Therefore, due to the money paid out by certain clubs, any riders the "lesser clubs" want then come with a similar expectation of money and as demand comfortably exceeds supply, they get it... I watched a Div 2 match the other week where six of the heat leaders on show should really have been across three 2nd div teams not two, (and maybe, given the current issues facing so many teams) all six should probably have all been shared one each across six teams).... So many Div One heat leaders DU as we are told they need to earn the money to keep riding, therefore let's accept that as a given fact, but then share them out across all the 2nd Division teams evenly.. If that means some rider control to be set up, then so be it... As. If they need to ride in both leagues to earn the cash they surely wont turn an opportunity to DU, regardless of where it is... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted August 28, 2021 Report Share Posted August 28, 2021 15 minutes ago, mikebv said: But ultimately, it's the stupid rules dreamt up that means Promoters panic, knowing that one or two clubs have a clear advantage due to splashing the cash to the best riders, meaning therefore, that they will possibly get a fair few home hammerings which could destroy their business as fans stay away.. Therefore, due to the money paid out by certain clubs, any riders the "lesser clubs" want then come with a similar expectation of money and as demand comfortably exceeds supply, they get it... I watched a Div 2 match the other week where six of the heat leaders on show should really have been across three 2nd div teams not two, (and maybe, given the current issues facing so many teams) all six should probably have all been shared one each across six teams).... So many Div One heat leaders DU as we are told they need to earn the money to keep riding, therefore let's accept that as a given fact, but then share them out across all the 2nd Division teams evenly.. If that means some rider control to be set up, then so be it... As. If they need to ride in both leagues to earn the cash they surely wont turn an opportunity to DU, regardless of where it is... Add the fact that the nominated heat 15 means having two No.1 riders is a massive advantage. Especially when you can't go for two experienced riders at reserve using heat 2 to offset against heat 13. It's a potential 4 to 8 point head start. Then if you can fill your lower order with foreign riders with competitive experience on low assessed averages, which is counter to the strategy of wanting to develop home grown talent, there's one generic formula for success. By simply allowing only one rider averaging over 8.00 (or whatever the correct number is) per team you address the supply issue, potentially reducing how much the top riders can demand. You make all the teams more competitive and potentially the product better to watch. Or you at least increase the foreign assessed average to 7.00 so if any team wants one or more rider over 8.00 then they have to field genuinely lower averaged riders to be within the points limit. Which should create opportunity for home grown riders. And allow teams the opportunity to go for a strength in depth strategy in which they always have a strong reserve pairing. Under the current heat format if you're going to restrict the make up of the bottom end of the team you have to restrict the top end as well. These are fairly simple equations that should be obvious to the promoters involved in the composition of their product but clearly they don't consider it in a formulaic way but base it on their own resources and what might benefit themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 28, 2021 Report Share Posted August 28, 2021 14 minutes ago, enotian said: Add the fact that the nominated heat 15 means having two No.1 riders is a massive advantage. Especially when you can't go for two experienced riders at reserve using heat 2 to offset against heat 13. It's a potential 4 to 8 point head start. Then if you can fill your lower order with foreign riders with competitive experience on low assessed averages, which is counter to the strategy of wanting to develop home grown talent, there's one generic formula for success. By simply allowing only one rider averaging over 8.00 (or whatever the correct number is) per team you address the supply issue, potentially reducing how much the top riders can demand. You make all the teams more competitive and potentially the product better to watch. Or you at least increase the foreign assessed average to 7.00 so if any team wants one or more rider over 8.00 then they have to field genuinely lower averaged riders to be within the points limit. Which should create opportunity for home grown riders. And allow teams the opportunity to go for a strength in depth strategy in which they always have a strong reserve pairing. Under the current heat format if you're going to restrict the make up of the bottom end of the team you have to restrict the top end as well. These are fairly simple equations that should be obvious to the promoters involved in the composition of their product but clearly they don't consider it in a formulaic way but base it on their own resources and what might benefit themselves. Re your last paragraph... What was the qualification criteria for the Rising Star again? Lucky for one rider and track in particular wasnt it? Just "snuck in" on almost every measure.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted August 28, 2021 Report Share Posted August 28, 2021 16 hours ago, enotian said: Well the idea would be that the TV rights across Britain, Sweden, Denmark and Germay (not sure what the TV situation is in Latvia) provide more income than the current individual deals on the basis that you have four/five home nations to broadcast to. With Polish riders involved you also potentially sell the rights to a Polish broadcaster. Then you have more potential to attract pan european sponsors rather than the local plumber or national brands. And hopefully, if the product is any good (best riders on the best tracks at the best stadiums) and you have a wider catchment area within only two teams in the UK the attendances increase. People still like spending money, just not on rubbish. Clearly none of these income streams are guaranteed but you can negotiate TV deals and with sponsors ahead of committing to rider contracts. The GP stars appear to want more competitive action than the Polish League offers and if the Polish authorities continue to drive down rider rates then it shouldn't be too difficult to attract these stars within a budget. Especially as you're not competing with another two leagues for their services. The opportunity for the riders would be Polish League and Euro League. If the don't accept the rates the Euro League are offering then they only have Poland. Potentially putting them at a competitive disadvantage for the SGP compared to others riding both leagues. If the riders want it and the supporters want it then there'd seem to be away to make it happen. Or you could stick your head in the sand say it's not affordable, pedal the same old tripe to an ever decreasing fan base until it is no longer sustainable. At least if you try something new there's a chance it might succeed. Why don't you put your business model together then and put it forward to the European authorities, there's plenty of work to put in to make something like this happen ...... good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted August 28, 2021 Report Share Posted August 28, 2021 9 hours ago, Trees said: Why don't you put your business model together then and put it forward to the European authorities, there's plenty of work to put in to make something like this happen ...... good luck Yes I must admit that at this point in time I wouldn't have the time or be prepared to invest my own money or have the contacts to make this happen. Which puts me amongst the 99.9% majority on here but that shouldn't prohibit anyone from sharing their views, opinions and ideas. Otherwise it would be a rather dull forum. You should also feel free to use the forum how you see fit. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 9 hours ago, enotian said: Yes I must admit that at this point in time I wouldn't have the time or be prepared to invest my own money or have the contacts to make this happen. Which puts me amongst the 99.9% majority on here but that shouldn't prohibit anyone from sharing their views, opinions and ideas. Otherwise it would be a rather dull forum. You should also feel free to use the forum how you see fit. If you honestly think your idea would work you at least ought to put the idea to the authorities, someone may have the necessary time etc etc to make it happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 15 minutes ago, Trees said: If you honestly think your idea would work you at least ought to put the idea to the authorities, someone may have the necessary time etc etc to make it happen? I put my views and ideas together in a lengthy email to the Leicester "promotion" over a month ago, I never received a reply, not even a courtesy acknowledgement... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 1 minute ago, iainb said: I put my views and ideas together in a lengthy email to the Leicester "promotion" over a month ago, I never received a reply, not even a courtesy acknowledgement... Dozens of other examples similar to this with regard to many issues 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 6 minutes ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said: Dozens of other examples similar to this with regard to many issues They know best.... Thought that this was blatantly obvious to everyone as it can clearly be seen by the uber successful sport we have today that they run... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 Being a “big fish in a small pond”in UK means nothing in terms of anywhere near being World Class.In any Sport only a tiny amount of competitors reach the TOP in World Terms. Polish Speedway is the dominant force in Speedway in , Sponsership,Organisation,Promoting and crowd levels. They have set rules which are relatively simple and reviewed at the end of most seasons. They implement changes if they think help the sport in their Country. They come down heavy on Teams that don’t comply ,even to the extent of track prep. Here in UK it’s all about self interest,a rule book that is all about interpretation. The sport in decline in UK,we just have to accept that fact Any young Talent with real ambition in World Terms has to be riding on the Continent .Breaking through there is difficult ball game for any of them as can be seen when the ride abroad just now at Age Group Levels. UK is now where journeyman riders pick up and top up their wages,that doesn’t mean we cannot see decent matches and entertainment,but we need to attract people to watch in decent numbers. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 3 hours ago, Fromafar said: Being a “big fish in a small pond”in UK means nothing in terms of anywhere near being World Class.In any Sport only a tiny amount of competitors reach the TOP in World Terms. Polish Speedway is the dominant force in Speedway in , Sponsership,Organisation,Promoting and crowd levels. They have set rules which are relatively simple and reviewed at the end of most seasons. They implement changes if they think help the sport in their Country. They come down heavy on Teams that don’t comply ,even to the extent of track prep. Here in UK it’s all about self interest,a rule book that is all about interpretation. The sport in decline in UK,we just have to accept that fact Any young Talent with real ambition in World Terms has to be riding on the Continent .Breaking through there is difficult ball game for any of them as can be seen when the ride abroad just now at Age Group Levels. UK is now where journeyman riders pick up and top up their wages,that doesn’t mean we cannot see decent matches and entertainment,but we need to attract people to watch in decent numbers. Very good post and a good assessment of speedway in uk . As the parent of a young rider we have seen the level that European riders are in terms of ability against our lads and in all honesty it's not so much what they do on the bike it's more about the set ups. These lads all have constant training on all aspects of the sport with national coaches who also travel with them for meetings. We have occasional days with current and former riders which is more based on track than in the pits. The days are ok but are always run on slick tracks with no preparation done to them , after speaking with our counter parts the always practice on fully prepared race tracks . There is no help for the parent who has to do the spanner work and in all honesty even though I'm quite mechanically minded I do believe there's not much more I can do and without guidance I don't know how much more I can do or teach my lad. His natural talent will only take him so far then it's about small marginal gains which without more help at this stage we won't know how to get them 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehone Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 1 hour ago, phillwhitewasmad said: Very good post and a good assessment of speedway in uk . As the parent of a young rider we have seen the level that European riders are in terms of ability against our lads and in all honesty it's not so much what they do on the bike it's more about the set ups. These lads all have constant training on all aspects of the sport with national coaches who also travel with them for meetings. We have occasional days with current and former riders which is more based on track than in the pits. The days are ok but are always run on slick tracks with no preparation done to them , after speaking with our counter parts the always practice on fully prepared race tracks . There is no help for the parent who has to do the spanner work and in all honesty even though I'm quite mechanically minded I do believe there's not much more I can do and without guidance I don't know how much more I can do or teach my lad. His natural talent will only take him so far then it's about small marginal gains which without more help at this stage we won't know how to get them are you able to sort the engines yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, stevehone said: are you able to sort the engines yourself? Servicing is done by Sean wilson and Robbie Kessler . Is not the maintenance for me it's set ups ,jetting ,timing up a tooth down a tooth shorten it up lengthen it up and the rest . I get good feed back from the pilot but it is interpreting it from what he says to what I see when he's riding . Constantly when we have been away we have nobody with this type of knowledge with us . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny the spud Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, phillwhitewasmad said: Servicing is done by Sean wilson and Robbie Kessler . Is not the maintenance for me it's set ups ,jetting ,timing up a tooth down a tooth shorten it up lengthen it up and the rest . I get good feed back from the pilot but it is interpreting it from what he says to what I see when he's riding . Constantly when we have been away we have nobody with this type of knowledge with us . I’m sorry I don’t know who your son is, does he have a mentor … an experienced rider who can point him in the right direction ? These things do eventually come with time and he’ll be able to work things out for himself, but as we’ve seen with UK speedway, promoters don’t give time. It’s ruthless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehone Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 Just now, phillwhitewasmad said: Servicing is done by Sean wilson and Robbie Kessler . Is not the maintenance for me it's set ups ,jetting ,timing up a tooth down a tooth shorten it up lengthen it up and the rest . I get good feed back from the pilot but it is interpreting it from what he says to what I see when he's riding . Constantly when we have been away we have nobody with this type of knowledge with us . a lot of riders used to do their own servicing to save money, but i appreciate it's not always possible. sounds like the problem (and it's been like this for ever) is most senior riders keeping things close to their chest which is a shame. this is where the likes of Stead and Allen looking after the GB youngsters come into play, but it should also be down to senior riders in the team passing on this info, home or away, but many are too quick to want to get packed up and away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 5 minutes ago, Jonny the spud said: I’m sorry I don’t know who your son is, does he have a mentor … an experienced rider who can point him in the right direction ? My son is luke Harrison current British 250cc champion. We have no mentor but since starting at 7 years Wayne Carter amongst others has been fantastic with him along with Berwick and scunthorpe speedway These things do eventually come with time and he’ll be able to work things out for himself, but as we’ve seen with UK speedway, promoters don’t give time. It’s ruthless 8 minutes ago, stevehone said: a lot of riders used to do their own servicing to save money, but i appreciate it's not always possible. in fairness it's not a money issue and if I had the equipment and time could probably do it myself but it's easier to go elsewhere sounds like the problem (and it's been like this for ever) is most senior riders keeping things close to their chest which is a shame. Can't disagree but there are one or two exceptions to that this is where the likes of Stead and Allen looking after the GB youngsters come into play, but it should also be down to senior riders in the team passing on this info, home or away, but many are too quick to want to get packed up and away whilst riding for Berwick in the junior league Kevin Doolan was fantastic always supportive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 2 hours ago, phillwhitewasmad said: Very good post and a good assessment of speedway in uk . As the parent of a young rider we have seen the level that European riders are in terms of ability against our lads and in all honesty it's not so much what they do on the bike it's more about the set ups. These lads all have constant training on all aspects of the sport with national coaches who also travel with them for meetings. We have occasional days with current and former riders which is more based on track than in the pits. The days are ok but are always run on slick tracks with no preparation done to them , after speaking with our counter parts the always practice on fully prepared race tracks . There is no help for the parent who has to do the spanner work and in all honesty even though I'm quite mechanically minded I do believe there's not much more I can do and without guidance I don't know how much more I can do or teach my lad. His natural talent will only take him so far then it's about small marginal gains which without more help at this stage we won't know how to get them Think that has always been a major factor with juniors and young riders.Thought the likes of Stead and Co would give the info.Another point you make that is really valid is track prep all the years I have watched speedway the second half riders only have had slick tracks to race on and generally learn nothing,years ago when there was more dirt on the track if they ever got into the Team in a Reserve Position they were out in Ht2 and usually got into all sorts of trouble as there was dirt on the track which they had seldom encountered.Like you say track prep should’ve the same as league meetings,it’s the only way they will learn(the hard way).The Poles have recognised Trainers for all their youngsters, which would take the pressure of parents like yourself.We talk a good story, but do we deliver!! Best of luck to your son,tell him just to enjoy it and it will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, Fromafar said: Think that has always been a major factor with juniors and young riders.Thought the likes of Stead and Co would give the info.Another point you make that is really valid is track prep all the years I have watched speedway the second half riders only have had slick tracks to race on and generally learn nothing,years ago when there was more dirt on the track if they ever got into the Team in a Reserve Position they were out in Ht2 and usually got into all sorts of trouble as there was dirt on the track which they had seldom encountered.Like you say track prep should’ve the same as league meetings,it’s the only way they will learn(the hard way).The Poles have recognised Trainers for all their youngsters, which would take the pressure of parents like yourself.We talk a good story, but do we deliver!! Best of luck to your son,tell him just to enjoy it and it will happen. There is a train of thought that kids can't ride prepared tracks and they need to be slick but if they don't have the chance to ride them how would they know. We did the Scunthorpe v Leicester challenge last year as part of the 250 group and the track was somewhere between championship and National league preparation and the boys coped admirably. Have done very few second half's this year as was finding it was just an exercise in learning how to change tyres and I already knew how to do that . unfortunately we don't have a dedicated trading system like the Poles , Germans, Danes and Swedes the majority of our training is pay £40 and queue up. There have been some good sessions with Jason crump though but sadly not enough . Personally think we could do with someone different at each level 125, 250 and 500 to pass on information and educate riders and parents He is loving it and enjoying at the moment but as the years go by and the nearer it gets to reality of potentially league racing the more intense it gets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.