National League 2021 - has it been abandoned?

[arnieg]

33 minutes ago, mikebv said:

Woffy spent his formative years in Oz, riding very regularly out there to launch his career and came over here well advanced in his development for his age level.. 

Robert Lambert spent his early years learning his craft riding regularly in German racing as he couldn't get permission to race in GB due to his age.

And Dan Bewley was one of those riders who crossed over from another bike discipline and finds he is a "natural" on a Speedway bike, so would have made it through sheer natural ability regardless of age and opportunities to race, (similar to someone like John Louis)..

A simple fact is that riders of their natural talent, (like so many riders who reach the top levels), would have "made it" anyway given whatever route they took..

A bit tenuous to suggest it's any big influence from the NDL..

Tom, (who doesnt seem to be quite at the same level at this stage of his development that those other three were at the same stage), looks like someone who has benefited from riding in the NDL, as he has made solid incremental progression, but, (like the others), it was the "old NDL" where he got the chance to ride against better more experienced competitors...

Not sure that someone starting out today, and are similar in ability to where Tom was, would get the same development given they wont be getting stretched the same..

I would suggest Woffy and the Team who took over running "Team Great Britain" have been far more influential in the success of this weekend.... 

What you say about Woffy, Lambert and Bewley is true (and you can add that much of British champion Adam Ellis' formative experience was on French grasstrack).

BUT

To survive British speedway needs to produce its own riders. The NDL plays a vital role in ensuring that we have the second strings of the future. Without the NDL to provide opportunities to learn would riders like Paul Starke, Danyon Hume, Alfie Bowtell and Simon Lambert still be in the sport?

[gazzac]

48 minutes ago, mikebv said:

Woffy spent his formative years in Oz, riding very regularly out there to launch his career and came over here well advanced in his development for his age level.. 

Robert Lambert spent his early years learning his craft riding regularly in German racing as he couldn't get permission to race in GB due to his age.

And Dan Bewley was one of those riders who crossed over from another bike discipline and finds he is a "natural" on a Speedway bike, so would have made it through sheer natural ability regardless of age and opportunities to race, (similar to someone like John Louis)..

A simple fact is that riders of their natural talent, (like so many riders who reach the top levels), would have "made it" anyway given whatever route they took..

A bit tenuous to suggest it's any big influence from the NDL..

Tom, (who doesnt seem to be quite at the same level at this stage of his development that those other three were at the same stage), looks like someone who has benefited from riding in the NDL, as he has made solid incremental progression, but, (like the others), it was the "old NDL" where he got the chance to ride against better more experienced competitors...

Not sure that someone starting out today, and are similar in ability to where Tom was, would get the same development given they wont be getting stretched the same..

I would suggest Woffy and the Team who took over running "Team Great Britain" have been far more influential in the success of this weekend.... 

Think just the one point with Tom is he had a dreadful broken leg and other injuries and was put in icu for a week or so a couple of seasons ago and lost a year out virtually, and then covid struck the country! It's only this season we've seen the real Tom I think, and he is getting better and better pretty quickly now, but like the other current young crop in the Premiership and championship came through a competitive NL

Edited October 19, 2021 by gazzac

[M.D]

57 minutes ago, gazzac said:

Think just the one point with Tom is he had a dreadful broken leg and other injuries and was put in icu for a week or so a couple of seasons ago and lost a year out virtually, and then covid struck the country! It's only this season we've seen the real Tom I think, and he is getting better and better pretty quickly now, but like the other current young crop in the Premiership and championship came through a competitive NL

Agree, Tom has lost almost two years so far so this season is really his first full year out of the NDL

[lucifer sam]

On 10/18/2021 at 9:09 AM, arnieg said:

The Armadale v Mildy fixture has now got a date (23rd Sat afternoon double header with Poole in Cup final)

 

With Leicester's senior season now done I imagine we'll soon get a date for the remaining matches (my guess - a double header on 24th or 30th)

Hoping for a double header this Sunday on the 24th!  Surely it must be announced soon, if they want people to plan ahead and put it in their diaries!! 

I guess it can't be this Saturday (23rd), since it will also incorporate Kent v Armadale which can't take place on Saturday, since the Devils are already riding that day.

Edited October 19, 2021 by lucifer sam

[mikebv]

2 hours ago, arnieg said:

What you say about Woffy, Lambert and Bewley is true (and you can add that much of British champion Adam Ellis' formative experience was on French grasstrack).

BUT

To survive British speedway needs to produce its own riders. The NDL plays a vital role in ensuring that we have the second strings of the future. Without the NDL to provide opportunities to learn would riders like Paul Starke, Danyon Hume, Alfie Bowtell and Simon Lambert still be in the sport?

100%. The NDL is needed...

However, the level they now run at is far too far away from the next level above...

Meaning the jump needed is too far...

Therefore they need to decide whether to dilute the level above or increase the standard of the NDL by bringing in more experienced lads from the middle tier..

Personally, for me, the whole structure should be based on an "Elite" League which you use to 'sell the sport', ten x five man teams with say 3 squad riders on stand by for injuries, so no guests, and then a league of "Championship Lite/NDL Plus" for all the rest, where you can run the RS system, having these lads as part of the "Elite" squads' list so they can come in to replace missing riders, with an aim to gain themselves a permanent team place if they do better than the man they replaced.. 

[Sings4Speedway]

Congrats to Mildenhall for getting their hands on the NDL title. A team built with all riders improving their averages (as they should with the points limit) and a little bit of fortune when Ablitt became available. In truth the current side looks like it should have won far more comfortably and perhaps were it not for Edwards lack of fixtures early on and an inconsistent home surface they would have. However they have prospered as the remaining stand alone team against the other doubling up sides who called most of the shots.

A bigger winter than ever now approaches for the NDL and some uncomfortable times ahead for all those who participated in it this year.

[Sings4Speedway]

Of the 56 starting declared riders there have been 12 retirements from Speedway that i have seen (yes amongst those are Knight and Dugard who have had multiple retirements across their years). There are also a few released riders that remain status unknown. Whilst natural attrition will always occur thats a figure approaching 25%. In the case of the NDL in its current form will it be a case of anyone with bikes gets signed next season rather than those who are sufficiently capable? 

[gazzac]

4 hours ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Of the 56 starting declared riders there have been 12 retirements from Speedway that i have seen (yes amongst those are Knight and Dugard who have had multiple retirements across their years). There are also a few released riders that remain status unknown. Whilst natural attrition will always occur thats a figure approaching 25%. In the case of the NDL in its current form will it be a case of anyone with bikes gets signed next season rather than those who are sufficiently capable? 

Very likely/probably/probably not/definitely not. I predict it'll probably/maybe one or more of those next season. 

[heathen52]

5 hours ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Of the 56 starting declared riders there have been 12 retirements from Speedway that i have seen (yes amongst those are Knight and Dugard who have had multiple retirements across their years). There are also a few released riders that remain status unknown. Whilst natural attrition will always occur thats a figure approaching 25%. In the case of the NDL in its current form will it be a case of anyone with bikes gets signed next season rather than those who are sufficiently capable? 

Iv no idea where the NDL goes from here, will the BSPL keep it to its current points level which will mean some riders will fall by the wayside because of averages, some of those that move up will also find it tough because of the inflated averages due to the BSPL imposed points limit, they have dug a bloody deep hole that they need to get out of, if keeping NDL costs down is the most important aspect of the NDL then i fear for its future, the BSPL need to look at the costs of senior racing had they done this in previous seasons then the NDL and Speedway in the UK might not be in its present predicament, role on 2022 and lets see what those in power decide for next season.

[mikebv]

13 hours ago, heathen52 said:

Iv no idea where the NDL goes from here, will the BSPL keep it to its current points level which will mean some riders will fall by the wayside because of averages, some of those that move up will also find it tough because of the inflated averages due to the BSPL imposed points limit, they have dug a bloody deep hole that they need to get out of, if keeping NDL costs down is the most important aspect of the NDL then i fear for its future, the BSPL need to look at the costs of senior racing had they done this in previous seasons then the NDL and Speedway in the UK might not be in its present predicament, role on 2022 and lets see what those in power decide for next season.

Running so many double headers shows how promoters were concerned about selling the NDL....

And by running double headers you also need to ensure you don't have an expensive second meeting as many fans don't like them and don't attend due to having to pay for both when they only want to watch the first one...

For me, it was more of a way of closing down the 'old NDL' rather than any great inspired development plan...

As if it was part of a development plan then the jump to the 2nd tier for those whose averages are now "too good" for the NDL is too far...

Riding against inexperienced newbies one year to riders who just rode for Great Britain v Poland the next...?

[IainB]

On 10/18/2021 at 8:59 AM, gazzac said:

Had to have a 'laugh' this morning, on the official BSPA website praising team GB's win and proud that all 4 riders involved came through the NDL having practically finished it off now.

Makes me laugh that they mention that they came through the NDL, CL & PL then stops short of going on to say and then out of Britain, for 2 of them at least and surely it's inevitable that Dan will go the same way

Edited October 23, 2021 by iainb

[gazzac]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

Makes me laugh that they mention that they came through the NDL, CL & PL then stops short of going on to say and then out of Britain, for 2 of them at least and surely it's inevitable that Dan will go the same way

Looks set to continue as you say, I know the Poles dominating now and dictating rules is the main problem at the moment, if they relaxed the rules on only one other country how many would still ride here I wonder? Also it makes you wonder how the likes of Nicki Pedersen managed it all back in the day, when he rode for Eastie ( missing very few matches) ,he also rode in Poland, Sweden,Denmark and the GP's.

[mikebv]

4 minutes ago, gazzac said:

Looks set to continue as you say, I know the Poles dominating now and dictating rules is the main problem at the moment, if they relaxed the rules on only one other country how many would still ride here I wonder? Also it makes you wonder how the likes of Nicki Pedersen managed it all back in the day, when he rode for Eastie ( missing very few matches) ,he also rode in Poland, Sweden,Denmark and the GP's.

Because they didnt have fixed race nights...

Meaning you could ride here, there and everywhere...

Meaning the top riders rode Poland Sunday, Sweden Tuesday, Denmark Wednesday, and then GB some, and sometimes all, of the other four days, with (apart from Tuesday and Sunday), every top league team racing on all the other nights.

Then the top lads left and said there was "too much racing"..

So we changed the top league to two nights to accommodate them..

And then they never came back...

So instead it meant everyone not earning big money abroad could double up and down and ride every night of the week somewhere in the UK should both their teams be in action..

And guest even if they didnt..

With these riders now racing against "Rising Stars", in both leagues, several times a night/week, rather than against "GP Stars" several times a night/week, which they have spent a fair portion of their careers doing..

A fantastically well devised system I am sure we all agree...

 

[gazzac]

2 minutes ago, mikebv said:

Because they didnt have fixed race nights...

Meaning you could ride here, there and everywhere...

Meaning the top riders rode Poland Sunday, Sweden Tuesday, Denmark Wednesday, and then GB some, and sometimes all, of the other four days, with (apart from Tuesday and Sunday), every top league team racing on all the other nights.

Then the top lads left and said there was "too much racing"..

So we changed the top league to two nights to accommodate them..

And then they never came back...

So instead it meant everyone not earning big money abroad could double up and down and ride every night of the week somewhere in the UK should both their teams be in action..

And guest even if they didnt..

With these riders now racing against "Rising Stars", in both leagues, several times a night/week, rather than against "GP Stars" several times a night/week, which they have spent a fair portion of their careers doing..

A fantastically well devised system I am sure we all agree...

 

Proving the point fixed race nights do nothing now I suppose, that likely to change?

[mikebv]

2 minutes ago, gazzac said:

Proving the point fixed race nights do nothing now I suppose, that likely to change?

Fixed nights just provide teams, who want to stay in certain divisions, with riders, otherwise they couldn't run because they dont have enough riders of the calibre that they need for the league that they want to race in..

And of course it now becomes a "must do" for the riders as their income stream will be getting delivered for several years now by having two jobs...

Meaning the 2nd tier is virtually the same standard as the top one, and the NDL is miles away from the 2nd tier..

Nothing will change...

[barrybishop]

Going back to the NDL and its rider developmentsuccess or failure - for me there needs to be a clear distinction of what success means. For example, there are riders who will always make it regardless (Gilks, Brennan, Edwards, Bewley, Lambert, Pallin), those that enter the NL on 3.00 and leave on 9 plus.. they would have made it regardless of the league structures or if there was only second halves after main meetings and amateur meetings available to them.

For me success or failure of the NDL is whether those riders who perhaps have to work a bit harder (I dont know a different phrase for this and I am not suggesting that those who will make it regardless have not or do not work extremely hard for their success and indeed I am sure it always contributes to it), for example here Danny Ayres, Ben Morley, Alfie Bowtell, where participating in the National league really made a huge difference to them and was probably the only way the made it to higher leagues.

Can we say in 2021 any middle order riders at the start of the league are now able to make the step up? This is where the NDL should really come in to its own for rider development in my view, for riders like Spooner, Verge, Coles to really give them the step up they need to Championship but also a "challenging" cushion in the NDL for confidence and experience. And the only other option is to have a properly MDL/NJL formated and enforced second teams to run, without fail, after every league meeting by every UK club. 

[mikebv]

8 hours ago, barrybishop said:

Going back to the NDL and its rider developmentsuccess or failure - for me there needs to be a clear distinction of what success means. For example, there are riders who will always make it regardless (Gilks, Brennan, Edwards, Bewley, Lambert, Pallin), those that enter the NL on 3.00 and leave on 9 plus.. they would have made it regardless of the league structures or if there was only second halves after main meetings and amateur meetings available to them.

For me success or failure of the NDL is whether those riders who perhaps have to work a bit harder (I dont know a different phrase for this and I am not suggesting that those who will make it regardless have not or do not work extremely hard for their success and indeed I am sure it always contributes to it), for example here Danny Ayres, Ben Morley, Alfie Bowtell, where participating in the National league really made a huge difference to them and was probably the only way the made it to higher leagues.

Can we say in 2021 any middle order riders at the start of the league are now able to make the step up? This is where the NDL should really come in to its own for rider development in my view, for riders like Spooner, Verge, Coles to really give them the step up they need to Championship but also a "challenging" cushion in the NDL for confidence and experience. And the only other option is to have a properly MDL/NJL formated and enforced second teams to run, without fail, after every league meeting by every UK club. 

And a next level that doesn't have the majority of riders that ride as heat leaders in the top tier...

The level currently from step three to step two is too big, as basically in reality it's not far off going from step three to step one in one move...

Having one or two experienced old heads from the tier above in most teams brought the riders on and gave them an idea of what the next level looked like...

Now you can go from learning your craft, gradually improve and move up, and be facing riders who just represented Team Great Britain in a test match v Poland...

Edited October 23, 2021 by mikebv

[IainB]

22 hours ago, barrybishop said:

Going back to the NDL and its rider developmentsuccess or failure - for me there needs to be a clear distinction of what success means. For example, there are riders who will always make it regardless (Gilks, Brennan, Edwards, Bewley, Lambert, Pallin), those that enter the NL on 3.00 and leave on 9 plus.. they would have made it regardless of the league structures or if there was only second halves after main meetings and amateur meetings available to them.

For me success or failure of the NDL is whether those riders who perhaps have to work a bit harder (I dont know a different phrase for this and I am not suggesting that those who will make it regardless have not or do not work extremely hard for their success and indeed I am sure it always contributes to it), for example here Danny Ayres, Ben Morley, Alfie Bowtell, where participating in the National league really made a huge difference to them and was probably the only way the made it to higher leagues.

Can we say in 2021 any middle order riders at the start of the league are now able to make the step up? This is where the NDL should really come in to its own for rider development in my view, for riders like Spooner, Verge, Coles to really give them the step up they need to Championship but also a "challenging" cushion in the NDL for confidence and experience. And the only other option is to have a properly MDL/NJL formated and enforced second teams to run, without fail, after every league meeting by every UK club. 

I would describe success as those riders that go on from the NDL to make a career out of Speedway. It really depends on what the NDL is supposed to be "developing" is it developing international class riders capable of becoming World Champion, it's never going to do that on a consistent basis or is it developing riders to fill league positions in the upper leagues to sustain the sport in this country? For me it should be the latter and if you look at the position the upper leagues are in this season you'd have to say it has failed. We had "the perfect storm" this year of Covid travel restrictions and Polish league rider limitations and when British speedway should have been pulling on the resources of the riders that have been "developed" over the last 10 years there was very little there, hence absolutely ludicrous levels of doubling up/down.

In another thread I took a look at the number of riders that were riding in the NDL 10 yeas ago that went on to have what you'd call a career in the sport and the number was alarmingly small, something like 10%, so the numbers would say that the NDL is a failure despite the "headliners" of Woffy, Lambert, Bewley & Brennan etc. That doesn't mean to say it's a bad league, I don't know, I've never seen an NDL match and don't really take too much interest in it. The problem really lies with the routes or progression into the upper leagues where the promoters are still more likely to choose a foreign rider or a double up/downer than go with an NDLer as the rules allow it.

[Fortythirtyeight]

On 10/23/2021 at 11:13 AM, barrybishop said:

Going back to the NDL and its rider developmentsuccess or failure - for me there needs to be a clear distinction of what success means. For example, there are riders who will always make it regardless (Gilks, Brennan, Edwards, Bewley, Lambert, Pallin), those that enter the NL on 3.00 and leave on 9 plus.. they would have made it regardless of the league structures or if there was only second halves after main meetings and amateur meetings available to them.

For me success or failure of the NDL is whether those riders who perhaps have to work a bit harder (I dont know a different phrase for this and I am not suggesting that those who will make it regardless have not or do not work extremely hard for their success and indeed I am sure it always contributes to it), for example here Danny Ayres, Ben Morley, Alfie Bowtell, where participating in the National league really made a huge difference to them and was probably the only way the made it to higher leagues.

Can we say in 2021 any middle order riders at the start of the league are now able to make the step up? This is where the NDL should really come in to its own for rider development in my view, for riders like Spooner, Verge, Coles to really give them the step up they need to Championship but also a "challenging" cushion in the NDL for confidence and experience. And the only other option is to have a properly MDL/NJL formated and enforced second teams to run, without fail, after every league meeting by every UK club. 

Interesting points but if your suggestion that every club should run ‘ second teams ‘ next year just where are the clubs to find these riders ?

British Youth Championship field isn’t the size of pre 2019 levels especially youth 500 level ( less than 6 riders ) Amateur meeting entries are down at the few tracks that run them ( 3 or 4 tops?) especially in the youth and 125 categories on pre COVID years, half of the entrees aren’t upto safe ‘ racing ‘ standards ( not decrying them but some are old timers just having a ride , others are complete novices who can’t slide around a complete corner ). There simply isn’t enough competent new riders to make up such teams and there’s been no new flow of kids getting on speedway bikes in the last two years for obvious reasons.

whilst a structured third tier is essential, let’s be realistic about how many new riders are taking up the sport….very, very few.

[barrybishop]

19 hours ago, Fortythirtyeight said:

Interesting points but if your suggestion that every club should run ‘ second teams ‘ next year just where are the clubs to find these riders ?

British Youth Championship field isn’t the size of pre 2019 levels especially youth 500 level ( less than 6 riders ) Amateur meeting entries are down at the few tracks that run them ( 3 or 4 tops?) especially in the youth and 125 categories on pre COVID years, half of the entrees aren’t upto safe ‘ racing ‘ standards ( not decrying them but some are old timers just having a ride , others are complete novices who can’t slide around a complete corner ). There simply isn’t enough competent new riders to make up such teams and there’s been no new flow of kids getting on speedway bikes in the last two years for obvious reasons.

whilst a structured third tier is essential, let’s be realistic about how many new riders are taking up the sport….very, very few.

Just to correct you there, I dont suggest that every team should have second teams. But it's an option that could be further evaluated.. My personal thoughts is that I know that it wouldn't work partly due to rider numbers but also, like always (and 2nd halve were supposed to happen this year too) second team racing isnt valued by many promoters sadly leaving those who can see its potential out on a limb with next to no support.

 

22 hours ago, iainb said:

I would describe success as those riders that go on from the NDL to make a career out of Speedway. It really depends on what the NDL is supposed to be "developing" is it developing international class riders capable of becoming World Champion, it's never going to do that on a consistent basis or is it developing riders to fill league positions in the upper leagues to sustain the sport in this country? For me it should be the latter and if you look at the position the upper leagues are in this season you'd have to say it has failed. We had "the perfect storm" this year of Covid travel restrictions and Polish league rider limitations and when British speedway should have been pulling on the resources of the riders that have been "developed" over the last 10 years there was very little there, hence absolutely ludicrous levels of doubling up/down.

In another thread I took a look at the number of riders that were riding in the NDL 10 yeas ago that went on to have what you'd call a career in the sport and the number was alarmingly small, something like 10%, so the numbers would say that the NDL is a failure despite the "headliners" of Woffy, Lambert, Bewley & Brennan etc. That doesn't mean to say it's a bad league, I don't know, I've never seen an NDL match and don't really take too much interest in it. The problem really lies with the routes or progression into the upper leagues where the promoters are still more likely to choose a foreign rider or a double up/downer than go with an NDLer as the rules allow it.

I think @arnieg said earlier that every british rider in the top two leagues, except Scott Nicholls had gone through the third tier of the sport. I guess if what you say is correct that only 10% of NDL riders make a carrer out of the sport then our higher leagues need to consider the options that are opened for UK rider, vice international riders for our UK based teams.