TotallyHonestJohn Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 8 hours ago, Marshall07 said: Should these clubs be given a deadline to decide whether they're continuing the full season or not? Whilst I feel sorry for both clubs being in the position they are, every meeting they run with this hanging over their heads is also costing the away team for a fixture that may just be cancelled. That, along with the looming transfer deadline day, closes after 31st and the riders have lost any chance of earning wages for other clubs But that works both ways M.07 Newcastle have run in away fixtures at Glasgow and Edinburgh with the home meetings still to do.... so RG has paid travel tyres insurance and wages for these two meetings and doesnt get any return on that outlay until they come to Brough... so those clubs have benefited and would save on their away obligations... Think the transfer deadline day is the 28th this year (maybe not) however what loyalty do riders normally give to clubs... it's mercenary in the sport these days... and are you not being a bit mercenary yourself here M.07 as Redcar are on the lookout for a rider? Bit jiggery pokery and get Riss back in again? However if it goes past the cut off date Redcar will be stuck with R/R? Just sayin like... casting envious eyes at Brum and rather than see them stumble on until past the cut off date and then fold apply the coup de gras now and pick over the bones... Never mind hopefully both clubs can hang on at least til September and if they do go pop... well Schmitt Happens... they wont be the first and they wont be the last its hapoened before and its not intentional... Regards THJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 9 minutes ago, iainb said: Maybe the way out of the situation is to take the money, run until bankrupt and then let administrators restructure the sport to make it viable. It's crazy I'm even suggesting it, I know, but what else is the sport gong to do? Then "go to gaol go directly to gaol do not pass go and do not collect 200 pound" because the next thing we will be hearing is people getting locked up for doing exactly what you are suggesting... It's a good idea in a soap opera like "Shameless" but honestly Iain not in the real world... Although the way Speedway is going it is turning into a bit of a soap opera when you think about it... Regards THJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrace Grumbler Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 21 minutes ago, Marshall07 said: Interesting that you went with an insult after I simply raised a question to spark debate which I assumed is what this forum is for...? I fully understand closing a club during the season is disastrous. I'm asking what people's opinions are of the time scale to call it quits. Riders turning up each week with no idea if their job will still be there the next, away teams spending money on wages (that they could probably do without) on someone else's attempt to save a failing business. No need to try insult me, regardless of my age (I am much older than 14 but it wouldn't matter if I wasn't!). I'm getting a little short on tolerance for what seem to me to be negative and snide posts on here from people who appear to think they're masters of wit and repartee. By all means have all the debates of the sort you seem to want, but it may be that by the time you've finished and look up, we'll be left with an amateur sport in this country - although there could still be lots of deadlines in that, I suppose.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinBSN Posted August 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 9 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: But that works both ways M.07 Newcastle have run in away fixtures at Glasgow and Edinburgh with the home meetings still to do.... so RG has paid travel tyres insurance and wages for these two meetings and doesnt get any return on that outlay until they come to Brough... so those clubs have benefited and would save on their away obligations... Think the transfer deadline day is the 28th this year (maybe not) however what loyalty do riders normally give to clubs... it's mercenary in the sport these days... and are you not being a bit mercenary yourself here M.07 as Redcar are on the lookout for a rider? Bit jiggery pokery and get Riss back in again? However if it goes past the cut off date Redcar will be stuck with R/R? Just sayin like... casting envious eyes at Brum and rather than see them stumble on until past the cut off date and then fold apply the coup de gras now and pick over the bones... Never mind hopefully both clubs can hang on at least til September and if they do go pop... well Schmitt Happens... they wont be the first and they wont be the last its hapoened before and its not intentional... Regards THJ That's a fair point I hadn't actually thought about the away meetings Newcastle had done with no return yet. The debate was raised without Redcar in mind actually as we've ridden at both already when these fears weren't public, although we do have another visit to Birmingham to come! It would be the Birmingham riders I'd feel more sorry for, having been delayed in beginning too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 1 minute ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Then "go to gaol go directly to gaol do not pass go and do not collect 200 pound" because the next thing we will be hearing is people getting locked up for doing exactly what you are suggesting... It's a good idea in a soap opera like "Shameless" but honestly Iain not in the real world... Although the way Speedway is going it is turning into a bit of a soap opera when you think about it... Regards THJ I don't see how you can go to jail for your limited company not being able to pay a loan back. The whole point of a limited company is the limited liability of the directors... which is why so many directors will be taking loans, paying themselves a handsome salary and then declaring bankruptcy. The government will end up writing all that debt off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinBSN Posted August 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 6 minutes ago, Terrace Grumbler said: I'm getting a little short on tolerance for what seem to me to be negative and snide posts on here from people who appear to think they're masters of wit and repartee. By all means have all the debates of the sort you seem to want, but it may be that by the time you've finished and look up, we'll be left with an amateur sport in this country - although there could still be lots of deadlines in that, I suppose.. Oh I see, so whilst people aren't allowed to post "negative and snide" comments it's okay for you to be condescending? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 1 minute ago, Marshall07 said: That's a fair point I hadn't actually thought about the away meetings Newcastle had done with no return yet. The debate was raised without Redcar in mind actually as we've ridden at both already when these fears weren't public, although we do have another visit to Birmingham to come! It would be the Birmingham riders I'd feel more sorry for, having been delayed in beginning too! Like a said it's happened many times before and not that far back... and it will happen again... you've possibly over thought the situation... but hey ho you've definitely stimulated some debate and managed to upset at least two sets of fans lol... Regards THJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinBSN Posted August 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 Just now, TotallyHonestJohn said: Like a said it's happened many times before and not that far back... and it will happen again... you've possibly over thought the situation... but hey ho you've definitely stimulated some debate and managed to upset at least two sets of fans lol... Regards THJ That's all it is, simply a debate. A fair few seem to be attacking the sport as a whole and whilst I know it has its issues, there seems to also be quite a few clubs doing very well crowd wise. Wolves, Redcar, Ipswich have all seen bumper crowds this year so something must be going right. Birmingham are reportedly pulling 1/3 of their 2019 crowd meaning in that year there was still a good 8-900 going there and the sport hasn't changed that drastically in 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 1 minute ago, Marshall07 said: Wolves, Redcar, Ipswich have all seen bumper crowds this year so something must be going right. Not bumper relative to 10 years ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 (edited) On 8/5/2021 at 11:12 PM, iainb said: I don't see how you can go to jail for your limited company not being able to pay a loan back. The whole point of a limited company is the limited liability of the directors... which is why so many directors will be taking loans, paying themselves a handsome salary and then declaring bankruptcy. The government will end up writing all that debt off PMSL I have a limited company that has been offered a 250k loan and I wouldn't dream of trying what you are suggesting... and just because you are a Limited Company that doesn't give you a "get out of Jail (or gaol) free card" if you knowingly perform an illegal act you pay the price... I'm starting to believe what @lewy had to say... Clueless... Regards THJ Edited August 7, 2021 by TotallyHonestJohn Spelling 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinBSN Posted August 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 1 minute ago, iainb said: Not bumper relative to 10 years ago You've missed the point again it seems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, Marshall07 said: That's all it is, simply a debate. A fair few seem to be attacking the sport as a whole and whilst I know it has its issues, there seems to also be quite a few clubs doing very well crowd wise. Wolves, Redcar, Ipswich have all seen bumper crowds this year so something must be going right. Birmingham are reportedly pulling 1/3 of their 2019 crowd meaning in that year there was still a good 8-900 going there and the sport hasn't changed that drastically in 2 years. Agree and when they are down to the last 6 clubs who get crowds and the same 42 riders are seen week in and week out let's see how professional the sport is then... once everyone else has had the coup de gras applied to them... Regards THJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrace Grumbler Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, Marshall07 said: Oh I see, so whilst people aren't allowed to post "negative and snide" comments it's okay for you to be condescending? I presume that anyone on here can be as negative and snide as they like, within the forum rules. Equally anyone can be condescending if they wish, although I'm not sure why you think I have been. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: PMSL I have a limited company that has been offered a 250k loan and I wouldn't dream of trying what you are suggesting... and just because you are a Limited Company that doesn't give you a "get it of Jail (or gaol) free card" if you knowingly perform an illegal act you pay the price... I'm starting to believe what @lewy had to say... Cueless... Regards THJ I also run a limited company and like you would never dream of doing such a thing and I am of course (half) joking... but we have seen shady dealings by some promoters in the past. DogFartGate, JackHolderGate And I have a perfectly good Snooker Cue thank you very much! Edited August 5, 2021 by iainb 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 14 minutes ago, Marshall07 said: You've missed the point again it seems. What exactly was the point? What do you consider a bumper crowd. All I said was a bumper crowd is relative. It may be a bumper crowd compared to those they were getting while under covid restrictions but they certainly ain't bumper compared to even 10 years ago. Just joining the simple debate, no need to be condescending Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 13 minutes ago, iainb said: I am of course (half) joking... So what you are really saying is your just stirring it... Never mind... Sore finger getting tired failing eyesight and starting to flag its been a long day... and there is a whole one not touched yet tomorrow... You keep a hold of your self and we will catch up tomorrow Regards THJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idanthyrsus Posted August 5, 2021 Report Share Posted August 5, 2021 21 minutes ago, iainb said: I also run a limited company and like you would never dream of doing such a thing and I am of course (half) joking... but we have seen shady dealings by some promoters in the past. DogFartGate, JackHolderGate And I have a perfectly good Snooker Cue thank you very much! Then as the company director of a limited company you will know that the shareholders are responsible for the financial wellbeing of the company. If the company is declared bankrupt it is not as simple as just writing off the debts, a liquidator would become involved freeze all the company assets and then pursue the debts owed to the company. As a company director I am sure you are aware you can't simply pay yourself a huge salary and take the money from the company and get away scott free. You have a personal liability to ensure that the company is not trading illegally and you will be taken to court and, if found guilty, have to pay all those funds back as well as court fees and the like. But being a company directory (like myself) I'm sure you are aware of all this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 6, 2021 Report Share Posted August 6, 2021 (edited) At the start of the season I read something from the BSPL that went along the lines that their plan will mean all teams "will now be able to put out as high a level of speedway as is currently possible"... Meaning that although the "best riders" aren't here a "decent level of rider is"... Surely your crowd levels should simply dictate the level of rider you can use not "a wish list"... For me, get 1000 plus every week and you should be top tier. (Can't believe such low numbers appear 'good' but never mind)... Less than 1000 and given the large % fluctuation potential with such low numbers from week to week (eg Newcastle, Brum, the issue Eastbourne had GP weekend), then you should be looking at NDL I would suggest... Losing 200 out of an expected 800 is actually massive as that is a 25% impact which all businesses would suffer badly from, therefore if fans make it so abundantly clear that they have so little emotional loyalty to your brand and product, then you should be very, very, cautious in your planning.... The NDL though appeared to be the one league that worked, and seemed to work well, and a 500 crowd would seem to be "more than enough", to remain solvent. . I went to Poole v Leicester last week in the 2nd tier and watched 11 out of 14 riders who will appear in the top tier this week... That frankly is ludicrous and can only be down to 2nd tier promoters wanting to have their teams with these riders, however they are in a league with clubs that simply don't have the finances to support that level of rider... Ironically, Poole got some criticism for dropping down but fair play to them from a business perspective.. They are getting decent crowds, (as they always did), are not paying out 'stupid money' to world class talent, and have been able to drop their prices accordingly which can only encourage more visitors. (It got me there)... (The ridiculous fact that all clubs can pick and choose at whim where they compete is a point for another day).. However, bringing a 'Poole' into tier two, or having a 'Glasgow', or a 'Leicester' simply means that league has too far a disparate crowd level from top to bottom, hence those at the lower end of the crowd chain will, if they want to compete, have do so well above their means... Of course, (going back to the NDL), given the NDL was "doing well" it was broken up. And you have to ask yourself why...? Maybe the unpalatable truth is that this could really be the 'de facto' affordable level of Speedway in the UK for the large majority of clubs and was too much to face for some..? BV, KL, Peterborough, Ipswich, Wolves, Sheffield, (on a Thursday), Poole, (on a Wednesday), Glasgow (whatever day they choose), and Leicester (on a Saturday) should be top tier. (And add Swindon should they ever make a return).. Nine/Ten 'Elite' teams being in the flagship top league with a high team strength level to provide full time professionals with work and have no "makeweights" in any of these teams just to get under an "average"... With all the other clubs being in some amalgam of either "Championship Lite" or (a pre covid) 'NDL Plus' level of team strength, made up of semi pro riders.... When you have 7 full time professional riders to pay for 60 races worth of points money, from your home crowd of 600 or so, it simply won't work will it? And all you can do then is raise your prices to fund it... Price increases which then drop your crowd to 550, then 500, then 450 etc etc etc... Surely someone in Speedway will say "enough is enough" and stop this continual race to the bottom? Edited August 6, 2021 by mikebv 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HGould Posted August 6, 2021 Report Share Posted August 6, 2021 I hope we get something out of Brummies before the weekend as silence can become deafening and worrying. Fingers crossed and for Newcastle too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSL84 Posted August 6, 2021 Report Share Posted August 6, 2021 34 minutes ago, HGould said: I hope we get something out of Brummies before the weekend as silence can become deafening and worrying. Fingers crossed and for Newcastle too. Think you will find that something will come out Monday sometime? Regarding two teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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