Justgotmecpc Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 On 8/31/2021 at 10:56 PM, Fortythirtyeight said: Let’s pick some of the bones out of your argument. Redcar struggled for a decent crowd because of Havelock, his demeanour towards the fans and his budget for the team reducing the product to a bottom of the league regulars. A new promoter came in, used the same budget but with a complete different mindset in producing excitement around the place and doubled the crowd and more. The new management trio have continued on with that trend and made it even more successful. Do you not think Redcar pay rent to the council for the STMP? Everything inside the stadium belongs to the club , it was just a rubbish tip when the track was constructed and, unlike Brough Park, not a structure was standing so Redcar have built from scratch. Access to revenue streams….yes they have, through their own efforts. They only took over complete catering in 2020 . Sponsors….all clubs are responsible for generating their own so that’s down to the club to source. Watered down product …promoters choice, just like the clubs management structure, Redcar have a team that works, how many staff did Grant get rid off/ bring in to help ? His choice. Redcar were in the doldrums, but turned it around with positive, enthusiastic management from 2017 onwards using exactly the same budget that Havelock had. They have shown it can be done. Newcastle , take away the non disclosed debts they inherited, which should have been identified, have no different challenges to any other club this COVID affected year but I do understand Grant walking away from the stress of running a speedway club as even the Redcar management , who are all volunteers, are finding it very stressful in these challenging times. Yeah keV keay saved Redcar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justgotmecpc Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 3 hours ago, Fromafar said: He discovered it really is easy to lose a fortune in speedway and have Zilch to show for it.Easier to make a fortune selling butcher meat without the stress. Not forgetting the obstacles put in front of him ie brick walls by the powers that be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortythirtyeight Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, Justgotmecpc said: Yeah keV keay saved Redcar Didn’t ‘ Save it ‘ as I doubt the brothers would have closed it but certainly brought it out of the deep rut it was in. The new trio have built on his philosophy and are doing a great job of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justgotmecpc Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 Just now, Fortythirtyeight said: Didn’t ‘ Save it ‘ as I doubt the brothers would have closed it but certainly brought it out of the deep rut it was in. The new trio have built on his philosophy and are doing a great job of it. Ok let's just say his input & hard hard graft was a massive help 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, Fromafar said: I asked earlier, but I assume nothing come of it. Lot of huffing and puffing on behalf of the two main local authourities Newcastle and North Tyneside and the potential of something materialising at a site in Seaton Burn but Im not sure what come of it and it seems to have went cold... plus with all the song and dance that went on about moving from Brough I think the promotion become a little disallusioned IMHO about the idea of investing thousands of pounds in a new site when there was little support for the idea... however if someone does come in it is an option that must be explored further when all ARC will sanction are yearly leases on Brough. How do you build a business plan on that... Regards THJ 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Lot of huffing and puffing on behalf of the two main local authourities Newcastle and North Tyneside and the potential of something materialising at a site in Seaton Burn but Im not sure what come of it and it seems to have went cold... plus with all the song and dance that went on about moving from Brough I think the promotion become a little disallusioned IMHO about the idea of investing thousands of pounds in a new site when there was little support for the idea... however if someone does come in it is an option that must be explored further when all ARC will sanction are yearly leases on Brough. How do you build a business plan on that... Regards THJ The site at Seaton Burn would be ideal for multi use such as speedway stock cars bmx any travelling fairs circuses even possibly music festival noise licence being granted of course, if I'm right it's a brown field site which I think would make gaining said licence easier, somebody like Rob who I beleive runs an events company would certainly get the best out of it, which makes all this even harder to accept, and I'm sure he feels the same, it would be the making of speedway in Newcastle, but at the moment looks like a complete non starter. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justgotmecpc Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 57 minutes ago, andys said: The site at Seaton Burn would be ideal for multi use such as speedway stock cars bmx any travelling fairs circuses even possibly music festival noise licence being granted of course, if I'm right it's a brown field site which I think would make gaining said licence easier, somebody like Rob who I beleive runs an events company would certainly get the best out of it, which makes all this even harder to accept, and I'm sure he feels the same, it would be the making of speedway in Newcastle, but at the moment looks like a complete non starter. Unless a very good sponsor of the diamonds can get Rob to have a another go at next season I reckon that'll be it for speedway in the Newcastle catchment area Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamonds85 Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 2 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Multi Million Pound investment? Council set up the infrastructure level the land and stick a fence round it... Diamonds lay a track, hire or buy a second hand genny; hire or buy a second hand stand (similar to what the Falcon's started with at Kingston Park) set up a scaffold type stand (aka Redcar) stick an air fence round it build some pits and a changing room (similar to Scunny) and off you go generating funds daily and not just on a Sunday... training sessions to hire out amateur meetings to run... stock cars and a BMX track out back to encourage the kids... outlay for that around 150k... No different to Scunny who have a good set up and Rob Godfrey started off with a basic site and built on it over the years... that site didn't just land overnight with one massive outlay of Dosh its taken time to build.... and that's certainly not the Olympic Stadium is it... but it's fit for purpose and does the job... Regards THJ Thank you John for this answer... When I think of building a stadium (even a basic one like Redcar or Scunthorpe) I think of it as a VERY expensive investment, maybe not multi million, but close to if not above a million is what I would have expected for something like that... 150k don't seem like a lot tbh to start a bog standard stadium... And as you say, it would be fun to watch its development over the decades as Rob (or whoever) invested more and more each winter... Unfortunately, that looks like it ain't happening Also to answer another question, I have never been to Berrington Lough, maybe before my time? I am only 21 years old haha THJ, what options do you think Newcastle speedway has? Will Rob stay? Or has he completely made his mind up now... What about a fan run club?? How much money would need to be generated for that to happen... One thing I've noticed, is that at a lot of other tracks, EVERYTHING seems to be sponsored, they announce the sponsors for each and every race, give a description of what the sponsor does etc, every airfence panel is filled with sponsors... But at Newcastle, they just seem to get a little logo on the back page, could we do more for sponsors to maybe encourage them to sponsor us a bit more? Or maybe ever get new sponsors in...? I'm sure Rob, even if he ain't the owner would like a 'Grant's Butchers Heat 6' or something along those lines in 2022... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Eck Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 The cost of getting Redcar speedway from a brownfield site to being open for racing in 2006 (in a very basic stadium) was in excess of £250,000 which equates to nearly £400,000 now. On that basis, when you add in the cost of an air fence, if the existing one can’t be used (and something that wasn’t required in 2006) you are looking at £425,000 for a basic set up. The other end is a purpose built stadium like Belle Vue. It cost in excess of £9m. I’m really not sure what you’d get for £150,000, but I doubt it would be anything like the proposed Newcastle set up 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 On 8/31/2021 at 2:31 PM, Tosh1218 said: Would love an answer on this from Dandelion , a few facts 1- Rob Grant got caught out on a few things the previous promotion had listed and Rob went with his heart on his sleeve and has come unstuck . 2- Running a junior side was a suicide decision from day one 3-How has the Speedway Promotors shafted Newcastle Diamonds and it’s promoters 4- The underlying issue here is there hasn’t been. the footfall through the gate to see the Diamonds survive these tough times 5- Has anyone asked for a lower rent from the owners 6- Can the local council help ?? All the above are not Rob Godfrey and his cronies fault as you call them , still awaiting a reply from my previous comment. Dandelion ?? Phew the Diamonds are saved!!! Unbelievable that the list of previous promotions have never thought of trying to get the cost of renting the stadium down?? I expect Rob Grant will have seen this now and announce the 2022 line up and first meeting date anytime soon. Then he'll be on the phone to Newcastle City Council who haven't got a pot to urinate in, can't afford proper social care, infrastructure maintenance etc etc, for a nice juicy hand out for a sport which attracts minimal visitors to the city and is probably in reality occupying a site which is a prime location for much needed new housing. Of your six facts, three are questions, two of the others are opinion and the other is bleeding obvious. Have a clown emoji Might you consider that young Dandelion was perhaps upset that her favourite team/pastime had just announced it was no longer to exist? So maybe some ill informed comments were made. Or maybe Dandelion is privy to the same information THJ has alluded to or the fact that Rob Grant was told to retain the same company as the previous promotion which was undoubtedly part of the reason he has walked away. Or the fact that despite knowing that there was never going to be enough riders to sustain the 2020 line ups in 2021 the authority decided to allow teams to keep the same line ups despite there being no obligation to do so and knowing that would mean some teams would track under strength teams. I don't blame Rob Godfrey. Yes the structure of the leagues and team building could have been better but speedway at Brough Park is untenable. Brough Park is too expensive for the level of crowds attracted. The track shape is no longer suited to modern bikes and riders. There's little or no opportunity for other income streams (bar takings etc). It's only available on a Sunday and therefore even at Championship level attracting heat leaders is extremely difficult (note who else now runs on a Sunday) even if they could be afforded. There are lots of other ways to spend disposable income in Newcastle and in a football obsessed area in which all the local teams are a shambles the last thing the general public of Tyneside want is to watch another uncompetitive sports team. I think this also answers the valid question as to why Redcar is successful compared to Newcastle. Speedway can still be great but all of the right ingredients need to be there and sadly for Newcastle the cupboard is empty. To his credit Rob Grant knew that the long term future of speedway in Newcastle was outside of the city but where and how much it would take are probably beyond anyones means at this point in time. Especially for a sport that, lets face it, nobody wants on their door step. Even if it could be proved to improve the local economy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Wee Eck said: The cost of getting Redcar speedway from a brownfield site to being open for racing in 2006 (in a very basic stadium) was in excess of £250,000 which equates to nearly £400,000 now. On that basis, when you add in the cost of an air fence, if the existing one can’t be used (and something that wasn’t required in 2006) you are looking at £425,000 for a basic set up. The other end is a purpose built stadium like Belle Vue. It cost in excess of £9m. I’m really not sure what you’d get for £150,000, but I doubt it would be anything like the proposed Newcastle set up I know what it's costing over in Cumbria to develope Northside and you are spot on 150k will get you nothing like the current Newcastle set up but it will get you a track laid two mobile temporary stands a scaffold stair case stand and maybe grassed banking to stand on round the bends. A basic breeze block pits and a shower block with changing rooms however it won't be a Stadium by any stretch of the imagination it will be a savagely basic "motor park" for want of a better phrase but again the stands come on wheels and are nothing like Redcars Stand... and again you are correct the add on's like an air fence tractors and whether you get a permanent electrical supply which will add 50k+ on the bill... so to keep the cost down you would have to use your own generator which will cost between 8 and 10k and you would need to go to someone like Wernick Group Ltd and buy some second hand cabins... I have set some large sites up for less than 30k for building projects so you will get a fair bit for 150k but it wont have the infrastructure of a Scunny or a Redcar that is for sure and as stated it would be "savagely basic" to start off with but from little acorns and all that... Regards THJ Edited September 2, 2021 by TotallyHonestJohn Missed out word Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 On 8/31/2021 at 9:12 AM, iainb said: With the benefit of hindsight, and I don't know the timing of events etc. but surely the massive mistake, if there was one, was running a Championship side. Because as soon as the taxman came calling NDL may have been the only way to go. I don't disagree that Championship level speedway wasn't going to be sustainable at Newcastle (for the reasons in my previous post) and the lower costs of a NDL team which would have been at least competitive could have been the way forward. But in 2021 that would have been something like five or six home meetings? Just not viable either. But you're right the only possible future for the Diamonds at Brough would be at a lower level in which all (or the vast majority of) the riders in the league were UK based and not riding overseas at weekends. However, you'd need to have a viable number of teams race against and you can't see the likes of Leicester, Poole and Glasgow (and therefore Edinburgh) wanting to dilute their team strengths. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Diamonds85 said: Thank you John for this answer... When I think of building a stadium (even a basic one like Redcar or Scunthorpe) I think of it as a VERY expensive investment, maybe not multi million, but close to if not above a million is what I would have expected for something like that... 150k don't seem like a lot tbh to start a bog standard stadium... And as you say, it would be fun to watch its development over the decades as Rob (or whoever) invested more and more each winter... Unfortunately, that looks like it ain't happening Also to answer another question, I have never been to Berrington Lough, maybe before my time? I am only 21 years old haha THJ, what options do you think Newcastle speedway has? Will Rob stay? Or has he completely made his mind up now... What about a fan run club?? How much money would need to be generated for that to happen... One thing I've noticed, is that at a lot of other tracks, EVERYTHING seems to be sponsored, they announce the sponsors for each and every race, give a description of what the sponsor does etc, every airfence panel is filled with sponsors... But at Newcastle, they just seem to get a little logo on the back page, could we do more for sponsors to maybe encourage them to sponsor us a bit more? Or maybe ever get new sponsors in...? I'm sure Rob, even if he ain't the owner would like a 'Grant's Butchers Heat 6' or something along those lines in 2022... @Wee Eck has given pretty accurate costs for a good set up of a Stadium but if things can be done on a budget and then added to overtime you can start out on a reasonable spend... but it's a moot point if your core business isn't sustainable... unless you have a very generous benefactor or company to underwrite the losses... I would be happy to discuss a fan run club along the lines of Edinburgh or what Worky had but again the cost can be quite onerous and at the end of the day you can only have three promoters max and how much say would the fans want... more money more say but then less can afford to contribute... you have some good ideas and valid points on the likes of sponsorship.... What would it take for Rob to stop... maybe 750 people through the turnstiles for the last three meetings... no begging bowl no looking for cash injections just numbers through the door... Or on your fan base run club... 40 people put a grand in at the stsrt of the season or 80 people 500 quid or 160 put 250 quid in or 320 put 125 quid in or the 400 fans who regularly go to Brough pay 30 quid a meeting for what is percived as a 10 quid sport or we all pay 15 quid to get in but we double the gate so 800 fans... They are all just daft numbers but for Rob to stay I think it's what it will take for him to at least give it another year... Regards THJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 31 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: I know what it's costing over in Cumbria to develope Northside and you are spot on 150k will get you nothing like the current Newcastle set up but it will get you a track laid two mobile temporary stands a scaffold stair case stand and maybe grassed banking to stand on round the bends. A basic breeze block pits and a shower block with changing rooms however it won't be a Stadium by any stretch of the imagination it will be a savagely basic "motor park" for want of a better phrase but again the stands come on wheels and are nothing like Redcars Stand... and again you are correct the add on's like an air fence tractors and whether you get a permanent electrical supply which will add 50k+ on the bill... so to keep the cost down you would have to use your own generator which will cost between 8 and 10k and you would need to go to someone like Wernick Group Ltd and buy some second hand cabins... I have set some large sites up for less than 30k for building project so you get a fair bit for 150k but it wont have the infrastructure of a Scunny or a Redcar that for sure and as stated it would be "savagely basic" to start off with but from little acorns and all that... Regards THJ In 2018 I was involved in the purchase of waste land, probably big enough to build a speedway track on, from North Tyneside Council. It's in between a rubbish tip a motorway and a railway line and cost £1m. With all councils struggling for cash and planning for housing developments much easier I just can't see any public authority making a significant plot of land available for leisure, especially motorsports. There's plenty of grant funding out there to stimulate the construction industry but you've got to prove that your investment will benefit the local economy. They obviously did that in Manchester with the promise of National and World Finals attracting visitors to the city. Something like that would be great for an authority like North or South Tyneside or even Gateshead, to have world class sport staged in their area but the promise of attracting up to at best 1,000 people once a week for 20 weeks of the year for a noisy motorsport is a tough sell. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted September 3, 2021 Report Share Posted September 3, 2021 19 minutes ago, enotian said: In 2018 I was involved in the purchase of waste land, probably big enough to build a speedway track on, from North Tyneside Council. It's in between a rubbish tip a motorway and a railway line and cost £1m. With all councils struggling for cash and planning for housing developments much easier I just can't see any public authority making a significant plot of land available for leisure, especially motorsports. There's plenty of grant funding out there to stimulate the construction industry but you've got to prove that your investment will benefit the local economy. They obviously did that in Manchester with the promise of National and World Finals attracting visitors to the city. Something like that would be great for an authority like North or South Tyneside or even Gateshead, to have world class sport staged in their area but the promise of attracting up to at best 1,000 people once a week for 20 weeks of the year for a noisy motorsport is a tough sell. Yep I know where you are coming from and I have noticed that the land at Seaton Burn is rapidly deminishing as it is being developed now as what looks like more industrial units and you need a minimum of 12 acres to set up something decent on land speedway wise... It's a knacker job for a site around here as the value of land is going only one way and one thing is for sure they ain't making any more of it... For all the points you have put they are the very reasons that councils won't support it... they make very sympathetic noises and nod their heads but they won't do anything... Rob and the club are between a rock and a very hard place unfortunately.... Regards THJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted September 3, 2021 Report Share Posted September 3, 2021 Hopefully he will give it one more season. He has just started up links with 2 football teams, he will have season ticket money next year, and hopefully more sponsors will come on board. I just hope with the early statement it does not hinder the attendances for last 3 matches as we really need the fans to turn out in force. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screm Posted September 3, 2021 Report Share Posted September 3, 2021 If Newcastle were to look for a new track and stadium and if that meant building from scratch, and it were to be a multi-use stadium for various other sports, would there not be a sporting grant to help pay for the costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted September 3, 2021 Report Share Posted September 3, 2021 27 minutes ago, screm said: If Newcastle were to look for a new track and stadium and if that meant building from scratch, and it were to be a multi-use stadium for various other sports, would there not be a sporting grant to help pay for the costs. I suppose there would be but these things don't happen overnight and take a awful lot of organising, drive and commitment by/from people and still require a sizable investmment from the end users. It aint easy... Regards THJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamonds85 Posted September 3, 2021 Report Share Posted September 3, 2021 One other thing I want to mention that I've noticed about other tracks is that the average age seems to be a lot older at Newcastle (and Birmingham) both tracks who seem to be struggling for crowd numbers, seems to be a lot older than some other tracks, such as Poole, Ipswich etc... Something to look at perhaps? There's an awful lot of young people seems to go to them tracks, which are the types who need to be attracted... What's so attractive about Ipswich and Poole that isn't about Newcastle? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSL84 Posted September 3, 2021 Report Share Posted September 3, 2021 9 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: I suppose there would be but these things don't happen overnight and take a awful lot of organising, drive and commitment by/from people and still require a sizable investmment from the end users. It aint easy... Regards THJ Hi John out of interest I wondered what the cost of set up was at redcar. That's been built up over the years, and by all means is doing well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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