Wembley and world finals

[mickthemuppet]

The individual world finals were always at Wembley. This competition was set up by 7 British promoters which included 6 from London clubs. The profits were then put back to the UK clubs. Where or why did all this change .  Surely they had a monopoly like Darts and Snooker has where world finals are always held in this country. I am sure Len Silver would have some of the answers

[TINYS]

Loved the one off world finals at the Empire stadium never missed one from the late sixties onwards and got home about 1 o,clock sunday morning now it's about 3 o,clock and a long drive from Cardiff.

[wealdstone]

 They were wonderous occasions going back to pre war . A entirely different breed of promoter then

[norbold]

3 hours ago, mickthemuppet said:

The individual world finals were always at Wembley.

Not always. Only until 1960.

[steve roberts]

8 hours ago, norbold said:

Not always. Only until 1960.

...and if I recall the Internationale was given FIM approval as compensation for losing the World Final?

[norbold]

57 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...and if I recall the Internationale was given FIM approval as compensation for losing the World Final?

Correct, steve.

[Split]

6 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...and if I recall the Internationale was given FIM approval as compensation for losing the World Final?

If it was meant as compensation for Wembley losing the World Final can anybody tell me why the final of the Internationale in 1961 was held at Harringay?

[norbold]

58 minutes ago, Split said:

If it was meant as compensation for Wembley losing the World Final can anybody tell me why the final of the Internationale in 1961 was held at Harringay?

I don't know, but I'm glad it was as it was easier for me to get to!

[chunky]

1 hour ago, norbold said:

I don't know, but I'm glad it was as it was easier for me to get to!

That's probably why they did it, then!

[steve roberts]

3 hours ago, Split said:

If it was meant as compensation for Wembley losing the World Final can anybody tell me why the final of the Internationale in 1961 was held at Harringay?

There's a great article about the Internationale in the latest edition of the "Classic Magazine" covering the sixties but no mention about why Harringay was the chosen venue as far as I can see.

[BL65]

It was in November 1960 that shock news was announced that the F.I.M., at its annual congress, had awarded the 1961 World Final to Sweden.  Numbness turned to rage in the U.K. over the next few weeks, with stories in the media of a threatened boycott of the competition by the U.K., talk of withdrawal from the F.I.M. (and thereby from the A.C.U.) and going it alone with our own version of the championship.  Some pointed out that through the dark days of the latter half of the 1950s it was only the payout from the Final that had kept the National League tracks afloat.  It was even suggested by one personality (not identified) that the sport in this country should be run by the promoters themselves, as they virtually did so anyway - an interesting thought, but then in those days there were some extremely capable and astute business-minded people at certain tracks.  Reports described how our leagues would be stronger without those foreign and commonwealth riders who still wished to be able to compete in their own countries, where the sport would continue to be controlled by the F.I.M.  This was at a time when teams in the National League had been cut from 8 to 7 riders due a shortage, with a lot of ex-National and Southern Area League men having joined the growing Provincial League.  

Maybe a certain amount of press coverage was based on speculation and interpretation of the views of promoters may have been less than accurate at times.  Nonetheless, the situation was uncomfortable for a few weeks until a sudden announcement that all had been resolved.  The work behind the scenes had been ongoing throughout in all probability, with a view to inroducing something to alleviate the impact of the loss of Brtitish tracks' income from the Wembley final.

The resolution, announced in mid-December, was that the UK would stage qualifying rounds leading to a British Final, from which 9 riders would qualify for the World Final.  During November and early December stories had been published expressing the thoughts of at least one promoter that the final would be better staged away from Wembley in any event, at somewhere such as Wimbledon, due to the very high cost of hiring the stadium.  It was argued that the cost of Wembley was 4 times higher than staging elsewhere and that all Wembley had going for it was prestige.  Others pointed out that the cost might be less but so would the income from a much reduced attendance capacity elsewhere.  It was emphasised that Ronnie Greene of Wimbledon was not the promoter putting forward arguments against Wembley.

As things unfolded it became clear that the British Final would be staged at Wembley.  This would offset the loss of the World Final to some extent, but the income from the event would undoubtedly be substantially less.  In view of this the F.I.M. agreed to award a new competition to Britain, initially known as the Open European All-Star Championship, renamed as the Internationale before too long.  With the British Final scheduled for the 'expensive' Empire Stadium, the final of the Internationale was allocated to Harringay, which was much more affordable and was also to stage the 1961 Provincial League Riders' Championship.  Perhaps it was felt that holding two high profile meetings at Wembley just a few weeks apart was too high a risk financially.  A lot of backtracking then took place, with people denying they ever had any intention of breaking away from the F.I.M. and they all lived happily ever after, well at least for a while.

Edited July 21, 2021 by BL65

[norbold]

18 minutes ago, BL65 said:

It was in November 1960 that shock news was announced that the F.I.M., at its annual congress, had awarded the 1961 World Final to Sweden.  Numbness turned to rage in the U.K. over the next few weeks, with stories in the media of a threatened boycott of the competition by the U.K., talk of withdrawal from the F.I.M. (and thereby from the A.C.U.) and going it alone with our own version of the championship.  Some pointed out that through the dark days of the latter half of the 1950s it was only the payout from the Final that had kept the National League tracks afloat.  It was even suggested by one personality (not identified) that the sport in this country should be run by the promoters themselves, as they virtually did so anyway - an interesting thought, but then in those days there were some extremely capable and astute business-minded people at certain tracks.  Reports described how our leagues would be stronger without those foreign and commonwealth riders who still wished to be able to compete in their own countries, where the sport would continue to be controlled by the F.I.M.  This was at a time when teams in the National League had been cut from 8 to 7 riders due a shortage, with a lot of ex-National and Southern Area League men having joined the growing Provincial League.  

Maybe a certain amount of press coverage was based on speculation and interpretation of the views of promoters may have been less than accurate at times.  Nonetheless, the situation was uncomfortable for a few weeks until a sudden announcement that all had been resolved.  The work behind the scenes had been ongoing throughout in all probability, with a view to inroducing something to alleviate the impact of the loss of Brtitish tracks' income from the Wembley final.

The resolution, announced in mid-December, was that the UK would stage qualifying rounds leading to a British Final, from which 9 riders would qualify for the World Final.  During November and early December stories had been published expressing the thoughts of at least one promoter that the final would be better staged away from Wembley in any event, at somewhere such as Wimbledon, due to the very high cost of hiring the stadium.  It was argued that the cost of Wembley was 4 times higher than staging elsewhere and that all Wembley had going for it was prestige.  Others pointed out that the cost might be less but so would the income from a much reduced attendance capacity elsewhere.  It was emphasised that Ronnie Greene of Wimbledon was not the promoter putting forward arguments against Wembley.

As things unfolded it became clear that the British Final would be staged at Wembley.  This would offset the loss of the World Final to some extent, but the income from the event would undoubtedly be substantially less.  In view of this the F.I.M. agreed to award a new competition to Britain, initially known as the Open European All-Star Championship, renamed as the Internationale before too long.  With the British Final scheduled for the 'expensive' Empire Stadium, the final of the Internationale was allocated to Harringay, which was much more affordable and was also to stage the 1961 Provincial League Riders' Championship.  Perhaps it was felt that holding two high profile meetings at Wembley just a few weeks apart was too high a risk financially.  A lot of backtracking then took place, with people denying they ever had any intention of breaking away from the F.I.M. and they all lived happily ever after, well at least for a while.

So what you mean is they didn't hold the Internationale final at the nearest track to my home just to make it easier for me to get to after all?
 

Great work as always by the way, BL. 

[BL65]

3 minutes ago, norbold said:

So what you mean is they didn't hold the Internationale final at the nearest track to my home just to make it easier for me to get to after all?

Thank you.  Regarding the suggestion of holding the meeting at your nearest track for your benefit Norbold I doubt very much that was the case.  However, if you had asked them then I am sure they would have done so without hesitation.  No names, but many years ago there was an instance of an England/GB international rider who was moving to a new club during the close season and he had similar offers from two rival tracks, so he chose the one it would be easier for me to get to.  Happy days.

[Midland Red]

On 7/20/2021 at 9:06 PM, TINYS said:

Loved the one off world finals at the Empire stadium never missed one from the late sixties onwards and got home about 1 o,clock sunday morning now it's about 3 o,clock and a long drive from Cardiff.

Cardiff is only a qualifying round for the circus now 

[BOBBATH]

I got to agree-lots of luck played a part in the one-off World Finals, but at least there was a winner at the end of 20 heats. I guess the Grand Prix system is fairer (maybe) -but how can you have a winner without winning a single Grand Prix event(e.g. Mark Loram)?-Who decided on the points set up  for these meetings-does it make any sense ??

[chunky]

1 hour ago, BOBBATH said:

I got to agree-lots of luck played a part in the one-off World Finals, but at least there was a winner at the end of 20 heats. I guess the Grand Prix system is fairer (maybe) -but how can you have a winner without winning a single Grand Prix event(e.g. Mark Loram)?-Who decided on the points set up  for these meetings-does it make any sense ??

Totally irrelevant, Bob. With any simple points accumulating system, it is all about that - who gathers the most points, not who wins the most meetings. Same with F1, and most motorsports.

If a guy finishes second in every meeting, and gets the most points, he deserves to win. Look at league racing in speedway. Your team may win 12 of the 13 races, and still lose...

EDIT : Jack Biggs won more races than anyone else at the 1951 World Final - and finished third...

Edited August 2, 2021 by chunky

[Midland Red]

7 hours ago, chunky said:

Totally irrelevant, Bob. With any simple points accumulating system, it is all about that - who gathers the most points, not who wins the most meetings. Same with F1, and most motorsports.

If a guy finishes second in every meeting, and gets the most points, he deserves to win. Look at league racing in speedway. Your team may win 12 of the 13 races, and still lose...

EDIT : Jack Biggs won more races than anyone else at the 1951 World Final - and finished third...

Re 1951 - irrelevant. The winner was the rider with the most points, not he who won the most races.

Still cannot fathom out why they moved away from the winner being decided over 20 heats, where every rider races against all the others.

That’s the wretched circus for you, though.

[chunky]

21 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

Re 1951 - irrelevant. The winner was the rider with the most points, not he who won the most races.

Still cannot fathom out why they moved away from the winner being decided over 20 heats, where every rider races against all the others.

That’s the wretched circus for you, though.

While I agree with you regarding the change from 20 heats, 1951 IS relevant to the conversation. Bob is questioning how Mark Loram could win the title without winning a GP. I made the point that the winner was decided on points total, not meetings won. I further elaborated by stating that the old World Final was also decided by points total, and not on races won. Although it didn't happen, it was possible for rider to win the World Championship without winning a race...

Edited August 2, 2021 by chunky

[BOBBATH]

Interesting comments from all as per usual, thanks folks

[BL65]

Reference to how to win a meeting or title in less than emphatic fashion reminded me of a semi final of the Midland Riders’ Championship at Birmingham on 13^th June 1983, in which there were only 2 points between first and ninth in the finishing order.  Andy Grahame and Neil Collins jointly topped the scorers on 12 points, both with 3 heat wins.  7 riders tied on 10 points, Steve Regeling and Mark Courtney (3 heat wins each), Jan O. Pedersen and Phil Collins (2 heat wins each), Alan Grahame, Phil Crump and Neil Evitts (1 heat win each).  The number of heat wins determined that Regeling, Courtney, Pedersen and Collins qualified for the final, with a run-off between the other three seeing Crump and Evitts join them, with Alan Grahame going to the Coventry final as reserve.  In the final, Alan Grahame took 2 rides and scored 4 points, matching Courtney’s total from 5 rides and bettering Regeling (3) and Crump (0).  He also met Phil Collins in both rides and beat him twice.  Fine margins; who knows how well he might have done if he had qualified from the semi-final, with 10 points normally guaranteeing a top eight finish.  Spare a though too for Steve Bastable, who scored 9 points at Birmingham and only finished in 10^th place.

The 2^nd semi-final was also staged at Birmingham, the following week, in which the qualifiers were Hans Nielsen 15, Erik Gundersen 14, Tommy Knudsen 12, Simon Wigg 10, Kent Noer 10, Les Collins 10, Peter Ravn 8 and Finn Jensen 8.  Knudsen and Wigg missed the final and were replaced by the next two highest scorers from the second semi-final, Kevin Hawkins (7 points) and Rick Miller (6 points).  Luck of the draw and what a difference a week makes in speedway.

The final was won by Gundersen (15), from Nielsen (13), Andy Grahame (11) and Ravn (11).