mikebv Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Four team tournaments? Always for me created the best racing as all riders were heat leader/best second string standard.. However... Some can't afford to pay 7 riders of down to reserve/junior standard now for 60 races out of their home meetings money, so paying 4 heat leaders, and best second strings, for 64 races, would be completely out of the question I would think.. The concept of having only heat leaders and second string level riders on show is for me though something worth considering in the top league hence my thoughts on five man teams.. You could still pay out for 60 races from your home meeting, 12 races each, and cap the salary at 'X' pounds per point... No make weights and plenty of 'no disrespect' journeymen average riders to have as replacements, so close racing should be delivered and no need for credibility removing guests. And struggling teams should be able to at least find someone to come in if they wanted to make changes.. If you take this year as an example, all six teams could have ran a decent 1 - 5 and called it "Elite". Giving it a stand out brand which was different from the league below. In all sports the 'top league' is the flagship and should 'stand out' and be aspirational... Plenty of rides for the riders (which is the only reason UK speedway really exists) and decent points money as five are sharing the pot not seven... Unfortunately for UK Speedway the biggest failing, and ultimate barrier to any success, is that (all down to the operating model), no league carries any kudos, which means every meeting ran in finding a 'champion' is also pretty meaningless from a 'team sports' perspective... Unless that ever gets sorted, so fans, media and bigger sponsors then start to take it seriously, it can never succeed... The saddest irony of all is that a 'great night out' can still very much be had watching the exciting 'raw material' of the racing on offer... (As the IOW are showing)... It's just a shame UK Speedway try to shoehorn it into something they can't deliver 'properly', thus diluting their very biggest asset... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 8 hours ago, OGT said: A lot of the ideas being suggested on here are really akin to re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. For speedway to continue/survive on any level, it has to attract new fans, young fans at that. I honestly cannot see how this can be achieved in this country. Old duffers like me waffling on that football/cricket/rugby, bike racing etc is crap and speedway is the greatest sport on earth really need to emigrate to Poland for this opinion to be anywhere near correct. I honestly hope that by some miracle a master plan can be evolved for speedway to rebuild and bounce back better, but without youngsters coming through the turnstiles, it ain't gonna happen. In my opinion, attracting new fans isn't going to happen with the way the sport is currently set-up. Those that run and compete in the sport, in this country, obviously believe the sport is bigger than what it actually is. For the circle to be squared for speedway, the first stage has to be reducing costs for everyone involved, including the fans. Unless that happens, and happens quickly, more tracks will close and more riders will turn away or will not enter the sport. I think the Isle of Wight's ideas could be the salvation of 4 bikes going round a shale oval track. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 5 hours ago, chunky said: I always said that it was the variety of formats that kept us happy! Three or four league matches, then a cup tie. Then an individual meeting. A couple more league matches, followed by a Test Match. Then a couple more league, then a 4TT... However I wasn't a great fan of the 3TT. For a third of the meeting your team wasn't involved and you had to rely on the other two getting a heat result that benefited your team...and Oxford were never that good under that format but we had to give Reading and Swindon an opportunity to pick up a few crumbs as we picked up the major honours during the glorious Cowley years of the middle/late eighties! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 6 minutes ago, steve roberts said: However I wasn't a great fan of the 3TT. For a third of the meeting your team wasn't involved and you had to rely on the other two getting a heat result that benefited your team...and Oxford were never that good under that format but we had to give Reading and Swindon an opportunity to pick up a few crumbs as we picked up the major honours during the glorious Cowley years of the middle/late eighties! I always enjoyed watching those but I have absolutely no memory of who won any of them. They were a nice Easter weekend of entertainment though, although, at that time, I regularly went to all 3 tracks so had an interest in all the teams. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, Grachan said: I always enjoyed watching those but I have absolutely no memory of who won any of them. They were a nice Easter weekend of entertainment though, although, at that time, I regularly went to all 3 tracks so had an interest in all the teams. ...I can confirm Oxford didn't! We were on course of winning the 1984 Easter Triangle until presented with a diabolical track surface at Smallmead on Easter Monday morning! You couldn't see the action due to the amount of dust and the track being slick which was the norm at Reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 8 minutes ago, steve roberts said: ...I can confirm Oxford didn't! We were on course of winning the 1984 Easter Triangle until presented with a diabolical track surface at Smallmead on Easter Monday morning! You couldn't see the action due to the amount of dust and the track being slick which was the norm at Reading. I remember a track like that many times at Reading, although Oxford and Swindon were also prone to the odd dustbowl too. You'd need a shower when you got home! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 1 hour ago, mikebv said: The concept of having only heat leaders and second string level riders on show is for me though something worth considering in the top league hence my thoughts on five man teams.. no league carries any kudos, which means every meeting ran in finding a 'champion' is also pretty meaningless from a 'team sports' perspective... Unless that ever gets sorted, so fans, media and bigger sponsors then start to take it seriously, it can never succeed... The race format was changed a few years back where all of the top riders used to meet each other more often, I really liked this and found the racing generally to be a lot closer, as with a lot of things in Speedway it only lasted 1 season before being changed again. Personally I still think you need 7 man teams to bring on the yoof. We, at Leicester, won the Championship league in 2019 and are current reigning champions... you wouldn't know it though, it's not been mentioned since October 2019 12 minutes ago, steve roberts said: ...I can confirm Oxford didn't! We were on course of winning the 1984 Easter Triangle until presented with a diabolical track surface at Smallmead on Easter Monday morning! You couldn't see the action due to the amount of dust and the track being slick which was the norm at Reading. Used to love the Easter Triangle at Oxford on a Good Friday morning, happy days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountArthur Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Is part of the problem that when speedway was booming, running the speedway was the promoter's main business. I don't recall Reg Fearman, Ian Thomas etc having other businesses, although I might be wrong. They were full time speedway promoters and their lives depended on getting people through the gate. At the same time, the vast majority of riders weren't full time. Looking at the Who's Who in Speedway from the mid 1970s, Peter Oakes would put in the riders' occupation in the profile and it was only the top riders who were full time. Now the riders are full time and need paying the money to live on and the promoters have other businesses and perhaps not the time or the incentive to get people in the stadiums. I might be miles out, but it's just a thought. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 6 minutes ago, iainb said: The race format was changed a few years back where all of the top riders used to meet each other more often, I really liked this and found the racing generally to be a lot closer, as with a lot of things in Speedway it only lasted 1 season before being changed again. Personally I still think you need 7 man teams to bring on the yoof. We, at Leicester, won the Championship league in 2019 and are current reigning champions... you wouldn't know it though, it's not been mentioned since October 2019 Used to love the Easter Triangle at Oxford on a Good Friday morning, happy days Ultimately Ian who cares who the champions are? It really doesn't matter... And that is THE No1 issue the sport faces... No2 is its Mickey Mouse operating model that allows the No1 issue to exist... Some say "we need to attract new fans" and of course the sport does, however, just getting back one half of those who "used to go" but got pissed off watching "their riders" ride for all and sundry (to the detriment of their own team), or becoming slowly disillusioned by the application of make it up on the spot nonsense rules, whilst facing inflation busting price increases to pay for rising rider wages, would be far of an easier challenge to undertake.. Running a dual league system with barely any demarcation from each other is not much short of utter madness, and can only be done to ensure enough rides for far too many professional competitors for a sport with such few followers.. The operating model simply does not work so to keep churning it out annually (with a cost saving tweak here and there), expecting it to miraculously sort things out is crackers... When teams can dip in and dip out of any league with such regularity it says everything about the level of "kudos" even the clubs recognise in their very own competitions... When they don't see any merit in winning any particular league (and could even go bust by doing so), why should the fans take it seriously? 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topaz325 Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 So.......we really need the promoters to revamp the sport at the next AGM (?) instead of dabbling with rules within rules but will they want to have a major different operating model from the rest of Europe but I suppose we need to really get back to basics and try and build for the future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 talk of 13 heats and a second half just reminds me of half the crowd filing out after ht13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, ch958 said: talk of 13 heats and a second half just reminds me of half the crowd filing out after ht13 but a few newcomers were going in the opposite direction to see what all the noise and crowd was about 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sings4Speedway Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Throwing more gloom on the doom but with Brum and Newcastle is precarious situations is it simply a case of who's next rather than if? There are plenty of question marks that could hang over many tracks with attendance figures and that's ignoring the threat of re-development of the venues. In 10 years time will there be 10 tracks left running and is that in any way a sustainable operating model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sotonian Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 29 minutes ago, ch958 said: talk of 13 heats and a second half just reminds me of half the crowd filing out after ht13 Made exiting easier for those of us who stayed on though. Made a difference with the crowd sizes back then of course. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinny Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 I find it baffling how the Birmingham and Newcastle promotions have got the begging bowls out and expect it to work. I remember the Mallett's done it at Newport and were slaughtered for it. I never agreed with it and always thought there were other ways to try and get fans through the gate. I read somewhere that Newcastle raised 10000 quid which kept them afloat for a couple of meetings. Surely the promotion there would of known the costs involved before committing to the venture? In a time where the whole world has been rocked financially, demanding fans turn up and threatening with closure if not is appalling. Especially with the prices still the same. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 8 minutes ago, Pinny said: I find it baffling how the Birmingham and Newcastle promotions have got the begging bowls out and expect it to work. I remember the Mallett's done it at Newport and were slaughtered for it. I never agreed with it and always thought there were other ways to try and get fans through the gate. I read somewhere that Newcastle raised 10000 quid which kept them afloat for a couple of meetings. Surely the promotion there would of known the costs involved before committing to the venture? In a time where the whole world has been rocked financially, demanding fans turn up and threatening with closure if not is appalling. Especially with the prices still the same. Maybe speedway could try and register itself as a charity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountArthur Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 It made me smile when I read in the Newcastle press release that speedway is not a charity - after raising over £10,000 of the speedway public's money - after holding the grand total of (correct me if I am wrong) - one meeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboy cookie returns? Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 The ironic thing is all these rule changes, manipulation of the rules the guest fest and doubling up and down are all done "in the interest of speedway" couldn't make it up!! The short answer is the product is not worth the admission charge and the rules governing the product are rubbishe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, cowboy cookie returns? said: The ironic thing is all these rule changes, manipulation of the rules the guest fest and doubling up and down are all done "in the interest of speedway" couldn't make it up!! The short answer is the product is not worth the admission charge and the rules governing the product are rubbishe. It truly is akin to "Turkeys voting for Xmas" the way they just set themselves up from season to season to fail ad infinitum isn't it? I am though always amazed that no one within the sport ever comes out publicly to say "This simply does not work".. Riders, who should be earning much more for what they do, seem to have no issues (presumably because they get to ride for anyone they can night after night).. Promoters, who see stadiums much less than half full and have to set up funding pages to stay afloat, never seem to come out and question "Just why the 'hell' are we doing it like this"?.. The Speedway Star (a truly excellent publication which any sport so small is so lucky to have) seems to have had a fair few editorials and comments published around much of what we all collectively discuss on here so 'within the sport' there must be at least some tacit understanding that the operating model simply isn't fit for purpose.. Yet each AGM ends with "we have a great plan and look forward to another excellent season of speedway"... Whilst each season ends with less paying customers than the year before..... Edited August 3, 2021 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen52 Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Even Wolves have had the help of supporters http://www.wolverhampton-speedway.com/news.php?extend.3377 though it says a supporter led Go fund me page, it begs the question how long can Speedway survive in its present format with Fans average age getting older and older, and fewer and fewer and those that remain reluctant to see any change to the tried and failed format of this century. With a 6 Team Premiership and diminishing Championship there is not much further british Speedway can sink, cost is a big factor for a lot of fans yes its probably affordable for the majority of concessionares but for the family man its not so, riders riding for any number of teams has helped riders but the bond between a team and its riders has been lost, the BSPL has failed to recognise this and now they cant go back because we dont have enough riders, its a never ending race to the bottom. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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