topsoil Posted September 19, 2021 Report Share Posted September 19, 2021 54 minutes ago, truthsayer said: Speedway is failing for many, many reasons. While I agree with you on the whole, I think that the lack of riders coming through is a massive issue. More local riders are essential. There is a need to reduce costs. Having riders commuting from other countries (and even from one end of the country to the other) is not sustainable. There are not enough riders in the sport. IMO, the priorities are to bring in more riders - not just elite riders but just actual riders - and to ensure that clubs have sustainable business models. Speedway is an exciting and relatively inexpensive form of motorsport to participate in, but it is not appealing as an amateur sport. Agree totally that more riders are needed, but not so sure about the 'inexpensive to participate in' bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted September 19, 2021 Report Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, topsoil said: Here's an unpopular post for you, speedway is failing because of the fans. It's often said on here that speedway should try and copy darts, T20 cricket, The Hundred and create an atmosphere. You look at these sports and the fans are creating a party atmosphere (usually alcohol induced). You look at speedway. There's no singing, no chanting, no drums / other musical instruments, no fancy dress (unless you count a Wulfsort jacket). What happens after a race? Programmes are filled in. That looks great for TV. Then they sit back down in their deck chairs. Polish fans (what little I've seen of Polish speedway) create an atmosphere. Just a thought. All true, but the major reason for the lack of atmosphere is the lack of crowds... A chicken and egg situation.... I have no issue singing along at Old Trafford when surrounded by thousands of others... But would look a bit daft doing the same at the NSS surrounded by empty red seats..... Or stood on the back straight in a section with just me and an octogenarian spilling his teeth out while he sang... What happened to King's Lynn's great song they did....? If that didn't generate great atmosphere then nothing will..... In Poland (just like any sporting occasion), the crowd levels generate the atmosphere, as being within a crowd loosens your inhibitions.. They also though in Poland have a "proper" sporting contest to follow with some tangible meaning to the result, and can cheer on their riders knowing none of them will "stitch them up" a week later by top scoring for their nearest rivals and ruining their own chances of success...... None of the above that supporters over here can say..... "Racing was so much better in the past"... I would suggest it was similar to what we have today in the main... The difference being the crowd levels generated the atmosphere which covered the more mundane races (and there were lots of them just like today)... Nowadays a mundane race is met with silence, with good races generating no more than a muted response by "one man and his dog"... It has always baffled me why, when on TV, clubs don't just let anyone and everyone in for a nominal charge just so the place is packed and "rocking"... A free two hour advert for your club and business.... At the NSS you often see rows and rows of empty seats from the start line camera 15 times a night... Basically advertising "no one watches this sport"..... Edited September 19, 2021 by mikebv 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthsayer Posted September 19, 2021 Report Share Posted September 19, 2021 3 minutes ago, topsoil said: Agree totally that more riders are needed, but not so sure about the 'inexpensive to participate in' bit. In the context of motorsports, speedway is very inexpensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesHarris Posted September 19, 2021 Report Share Posted September 19, 2021 3 hours ago, mikebv said: All true, but the major reason for the lack of atmosphere is the lack of crowds... A chicken and egg situation.... I have no issue singing along at Old Trafford when surrounded by thousands of others... But would look a bit daft doing the same at the NSS surrounded by empty red seats..... Or stood on the back straight in a section with just me and an octogenarian spilling his teeth out while he sang... What happened to King's Lynn's great song they did....? If that didn't generate great atmosphere then nothing will..... In Poland (just like any sporting occasion), the crowd levels generate the atmosphere, as being within a crowd loosens your inhibitions.. They also though in Poland have a "proper" sporting contest to follow with some tangible meaning to the result, and can cheer on their riders knowing none of them will "stitch them up" a week later by top scoring for their nearest rivals and ruining their own chances of success...... None of the above that supporters over here can say..... "Racing was so much better in the past"... I would suggest it was similar to what we have today in the main... The difference being the crowd levels generated the atmosphere which covered the more mundane races (and there were lots of them just like today)... Nowadays a mundane race is met with silence, with good races generating no more than a muted response by "one man and his dog"... It has always baffled me why, when on TV, clubs don't just let anyone and everyone in for a nominal charge just so the place is packed and "rocking"... A free two hour advert for your club and business.... At the NSS you often see rows and rows of empty seats from the start line camera 15 times a night... Basically advertising "no one watches this sport"..... Bit of a strange one really. I've watched Polish speedway and the atmosphere in the crowd it buzzing. We just don't have the same thing here. All that happens here is the DJ will play some cheesy tune from the 80's and the fans will clap like sea lions at feeding time when the home rider wins. I've even been to meetings here where the racing was good but there was probably more atmosphere on the Moon! I remember around the turn of the millennium Belle Vue used to bring a band of foul mouthed oinks on their travels who got a little animated but I wouldn't call that an atmosphere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted September 19, 2021 Report Share Posted September 19, 2021 6 hours ago, JamesHarris said: Bit of a strange one really. I've watched Polish speedway and the atmosphere in the crowd it buzzing. We just don't have the same thing here. All that happens here is the DJ will play some cheesy tune from the 80's and the fans will clap like sea lions at feeding time when the home rider wins. I've even been to meetings here where the racing was good but there was probably more atmosphere on the Moon! I remember around the turn of the millennium Belle Vue used to bring a band of foul mouthed oinks on their travels who got a little animated but I wouldn't call that an atmosphere. Did you add to the atmosphere with whooping and fist pumps? I think the alcohol is a pretty big part in the making of the atmosphere in Poland. The few times I have been we've all had drink before the meeting, it's what they do on Sunday dinnertime! Not quite the same when you're getting home from work on a Thursday afternoon, rushing down your tea and then driving for an hour to support your team BUT we can still give the meeting our 100% interest, cheer on our team before, during and after the meeting instead of chatting amongst ourselves! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 (edited) On 9/19/2021 at 11:08 PM, Trees said: Did you add to the atmosphere with whooping and fist pumps? I think the alcohol is a pretty big part in the making of the atmosphere in Poland. The few times I have been we've all had drink before the meeting, it's what they do on Sunday dinnertime! Not quite the same when you're getting home from work on a Thursday afternoon, rushing down your tea and then driving for an hour to support your team BUT we can still give the meeting our 100% interest, cheer on our team before, during and after the meeting instead of chatting amongst ourselves! Again, it ultimately goes back to credibility.... I can 100% guarantee that literally thousands of Wroclaw fans wouldnt' be chanting Woffy's name if he had top scored the previous Sunday for Gorzow whilst covering a Zmarzlik injury absence... A performance from him which could then result in Wroclaw's omission from the play offs and Gorzow's inclusion instead.. That is really the bottom line as to the lack of atmosphere, and lack of crowds over here.. You cannot make any "emotional investment" into "your team" because, for many weeks of the season, it will just be an ad hoc hybrid of everyone else's.. With the ("your") rider doing the lap of honour potentially riding against you a few days later.... If Poland ran the same system as the UK, then they too would have low attendance levels, no major sponsorship of teams and leagues, and TV companies would be using their coverage as very much a second thought "filler", like we have, rather than by having to out bid each other to win the contracts to show it... Some people still believe that anyone who pulls on their teams' colours are "their riders" and will cheer them on.. Which is fine if some want to suspend reality and believe that... I would suggest looking at the numbers through the gates these days, that this is an ever dwindling number who are still prepared to "pretend" that what they are watching is "real", and actually has some purpose and relevance.. Edited September 21, 2021 by mikebv 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny the spud Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 Thé fact that the powers that be have consistently failed to find a top named league sponsor for the last two decades tells you all you need to know 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 (edited) Speedway is failing, not only due to, but because people who are really just fans with money are running the sport. They are called promoters. Obviously they do so because they love speedway, but at the same time they don't see the problems with it. We are all speedway fans, and when someone offers a suggestion or criticism of the product, it tends to get the speedway fan's back up. A lot promoters plough wads of money into the club just to keep it afloat. It shows their intentions are well and good. When the well runs dry, cash runs out, the track is placed into trouble. Then someone else rides in to the rescue, another speedway supporter with money, and we repeat the previous process. The sport needs to cut its cloth accordingly. It needs a genuine root and branch review of why it has sunk this low. I know the pandemic has given it a right old bruising, but we've been travelling in this direction for years, and yet the sport relied on a make-do attitude of focusing on the end-of-season play offs, which mean nothing if the track folds in the winter. Look at many of the established clubs that have gone by the wayside. Their success means nothing to history if the sport doesn't survive tomorrow. Edited September 20, 2021 by moxey63 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABS Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 The demise of speedway in the UK, for me, started a long while ago. Consistently reducing team averages constituted a dilution of the product on offer. Combined with ever increasing prices and value for money just went out of the window. Forget all the intervals, false starts, etc., speedway is in effect around 15 minutes of actual racing and for £18-£20 just isn't good value. I go to Belle Vue every week, because I always have done. Would speedway, in its current format, attract me as a new follower - probably not. For a conurbation the size of Greater Manchester, the crowds we get are really poor. Would they improve with better riders in the league, a reduction in pricing, better promotion in the local areas, well who knows? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 24, 2021 Report Share Posted September 24, 2021 It's often been said but until speedway takes on an idependant body to run the sport (although signs are now it is far too late) it won't survice under its present remit. I don't go along with the view that individual promoters who have a financial stake in their own club would veto such a proposal. Other sports run perfectly well whereby individual clubs/teams have an input but overal responsibilty/decisions are made/approved at a higher level. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted September 24, 2021 Report Share Posted September 24, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, steve roberts said: It's often been said but until speedway takes on an idependant body to run the sport (although signs are now it is far too late) it won't survice under its present remit. I don't go along with the view that individual promoters who have a financial stake in their own club would veto such a proposal. Other sports run perfectly well whereby individual clubs/teams have an input but overal responsibilty/decisions are made/approved at a higher level. They do need someone to save them from themselves at times I feel.. I look at them sometimes like I would an "addict" as they often show some similar traits of the addicts I have had contact with.. ie A great desire for their fix (in this case Speedway and owning a team).. A belief that what they do and how they run the sport is "acceptable" although deep down many will know it isn't... A belief that they can make slight changes to improve their situation, but actually avoid ever solving any of the fundamental root causes that brings them so many issues.. A failure to seek, and then take, advice as to what is going wrong as the truth may be too hard to handle.. Keeping everything about them almost a secret and never letting anyone "from outside" in close.. And a justifying of their adhoc decision making to try and correct their latest self inflicted setbacks, rather than not inflict the setback on themselves in the first place.. With "Just making it through" seeming to be a clear sum of their ambition.. And just like addicts everywhere they will spend fortunes, yet have very little to show for it.... And by that in UK Speedway terms it means hardly anything in the way of national (and even local) cut through and recognition, and no major sponsor to lessen the money they put in as individuals.. . Therefore you would think that they would at least seek some feedback and maybe do some information gathering as to why so few now attend compared to even ten or twenty years ago wouldnt you..? The key for me as to who can help them are the many tens of thousands who sit at home each week and no longer pay their money into the sport in the UK... Even more people than the ones who actually attend I would suggest.. Yet these people will still follow the results closely, and attend SON's, GP's, FIM meetings etc in the UK, and have a huge love of the sport. (And even travel abroad to watch league speedway)... They just cant justify paying the kind of sums now expected to be paid to attend UK Speedway for the contrived output that is on offer.. Which is a shame, as the raw material of the product itself is fantastic... It's just how it is packaged in the UK that lets it down, and dissuades so many from purchasing... With huge irony the Promoters are both the saviour and the destroyer of the sport in the UK, so maybe opening up to their fanbase (both those who still do and those who no longer attend) and accepting at face value what they are being told could be just what they need to help them move forward... A great many love the sport and would be delighted to see UK Speedway flourish because, ultimately, everyone is on the same side.... As, if the sport disappears in the UK, (as it's current annual run rate of tracks closing suggests it eventually will), then we all lose.. Edited September 24, 2021 by mikebv 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboy cookie returns? Posted September 24, 2021 Report Share Posted September 24, 2021 1 hour ago, mikebv said: They do need someone to save them from themselves at times I feel.. I look at them sometimes like I would an "addict" as they often show some similar traits of the addicts I have had contact with.. ie A great desire for their fix (in this case Speedway and owning a team).. A belief that what they do and how they run the sport is "acceptable" although deep down many will know it isn't... A belief that they can make slight changes to improve their situation, but actually avoid ever solving any of the fundamental root causes that brings them so many issues.. A failure to seek, and then take, advice as to what is going wrong as the truth may be too hard to handle.. Keeping everything about them almost a secret and never letting anyone "from outside" in close.. And a justifying of their adhoc decision making to try and correct their latest self inflicted setbacks, rather than not inflict the setback on themselves in the first place.. With "Just making it through" seeming to be a clear sum of their ambition.. And just like addicts everywhere they will spend fortunes, yet have very little to show for it.... And by that in UK Speedway terms it means hardly anything in the way of national (and even local) cut through and recognition, and no major sponsor to lessen the money they put in as individuals.. . Therefore you would think that they would at least seek some feedback and maybe do some information gathering as to why so few now attend compared to even ten or twenty years ago wouldnt you..? The key for me as to who can help them are the many tens of thousands who sit at home each week and no longer pay their money into the sport in the UK... Even more people than the ones who actually attend I would suggest.. Yet these people will still follow the results closely, and attend SON's, GP's, FIM meetings etc in the UK, and have a huge love of the sport. (And even travel abroad to watch league speedway)... They just cant justify paying the kind of sums now expected to be paid to attend UK Speedway for the contrived output that is on offer.. Which is a shame, as the raw material of the product itself is fantastic... It's just how it is packaged in the UK that lets it down, and dissuades so many from purchasing... With huge irony the Promoters are both the saviour and the destroyer of the sport in the UK, so maybe opening up to their fanbase (both those who still do and those who no longer attend) and accepting at face value what they are being told could be just what they need to help them move forward... A great many love the sport and would be delighted to see UK Speedway flourish because, ultimately, everyone is on the same side.... As, if the sport disappears in the UK, (as it's current annual run rate of tracks closing suggests it eventually will), then we all lose.. Brilliant post. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted September 26, 2021 Report Share Posted September 26, 2021 On 9/20/2021 at 1:19 PM, ABS said: The demise of speedway in the UK, for me, started a long while ago. Consistently reducing team averages constituted a dilution of the product on offer. Combined with ever increasing prices and value for money just went out of the window. Forget all the intervals, false starts, etc., speedway is in effect around 15 minutes of actual racing and for £18-£20 just isn't good value. I go to Belle Vue every week, because I always have done. Would speedway, in its current format, attract me as a new follower - probably not. For a conurbation the size of Greater Manchester, the crowds we get are really poor. Would they improve with better riders in the league, a reduction in pricing, better promotion in the local areas, well who knows? Had better riders not so long ago, were the crowds any better? I think probs not. When Lynn had their successful few years in the Premier League we had teams that gelled together, lived together, were friends together, the fans loved the teams, the feel good factor was immense, we were winning everywhere, things couldn't have been better. Promotions need to allow the fans the chance to feel close to their team, to care about the team, to be as one as a club. Belle Vue do half a job with their 3 riders after the meeting being interviewed in front of a few in the grandstand but could do more, get all the riders in there, open up the 3rd/4th bend so the peasants on the back straight can walk round and attend the conference if they want instead of having to walk all the way round to the front of the stadium. Open up the pits before the meetings etc. The Belle Vue stadium is like a them and us stadium, hate that fact. On a side note, absolutely pisses me off that after the British Final each year the sponsors board is put up so only the fans in the grandstand can see the riders being presented with the trophies, I was incensed this year, put it on the first bend so we can all see!!!!!!!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted September 26, 2021 Report Share Posted September 26, 2021 (edited) On 9/19/2021 at 12:44 PM, truthsayer said: In the context of motorsports, speedway is very inexpensive. Without the fans to pay for even an inexpensive motorsport, which you suggest speedway is, then competitors will have to turn amateur. Might not be such a bad thing. Edited September 26, 2021 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthsayer Posted September 26, 2021 Report Share Posted September 26, 2021 Almost every sport is essentially a 'participation' sport. In other words, people pay their dues and take part for their own entertainment. Then, at some level, people pay to watch and it becomes a 'spectator' or 'professional' sport. The amateur ranks far outweigh the professional ones. British speedway is the only sport I can think of where the vast majority of meetings take place in front of paying spectators. But there are not enough riders and not enough facilities for riders to practice and develop. There needs to be an amateur level. Not just an amateur level, but a predominantly amateur level. Seriously. 90% of British speedway should be amateur, 5% 'semi-professional' and no more than 5% fully professional. Speedway is a relatively cheap form of motorsport, especially at an amateur level. For example, a rider in a support class at British super bikes will pay £400 for entry fees, £1000 for tyres and £100 for fuel each weekend. That's doing it cheap in one of the lower classes, and without the cost of buying the motorcycles (think £20k) and repairing them. Out of the 160-ish riders competing in BSB this weekend, I'd suggest 130 are paying for the privilege, around 20 are cost neutral and only a few are actually making a living. At club level, 100% are paying for the privilege. Speedway doesn't have enough riders. This is the main flaw in the business plan. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HackneyHawk Posted September 27, 2021 Report Share Posted September 27, 2021 22 hours ago, Trees said: On a side note, absolutely pisses me off that after the British Final each year the sponsors board is put up so only the fans in the grandstand can see the riders being presented with the trophies, I was incensed this year, put it on the first bend so we can all see!!!!!!!!!! Yes that is shameful. Terrible customer service. they may do that in football but Speedway should look after it's fans better than that Proper parades/intros - proper celebration laps from riders after every race - proper team laps after the meeting has ended, on their bikes with team flags without helmets NOT being taken round on the back of an old van! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
False dawn Posted September 27, 2021 Report Share Posted September 27, 2021 23 hours ago, Trees said: On a side note, absolutely pisses me off that after the British Final each year the sponsors board is put up so only the fans in the grandstand can see the riders being presented with the trophies, I was incensed this year, put it on the first bend so we can all see!!!!!!!!!! Wow, you've revived a memory from a few (!?) years ago. Brandon experimented with a raised platform in front of the stand once upon a time. Only problem was that the nearby fans could climb onto the outer edge of the platform blocking everyone else's view. I sent this to Mr Ochiltree "When watching the MRC and hoping the winner's a Bee, with Ole on top, the presentation's a flop, 'cause the fans on the terraces can't see". I'm not sure if my foray into prose had any effect, but the platform never appeared again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted September 27, 2021 Report Share Posted September 27, 2021 50 minutes ago, False dawn said: Wow, you've revived a memory from a few (!?) years ago. Brandon experimented with a raised platform in front of the stand once upon a time. Only problem was that the nearby fans could climb onto the outer edge of the platform blocking everyone else's view. I sent this to Mr Ochiltree "When watching the MRC and hoping the winner's a Bee, with Ole on top, the presentation's a flop, 'cause the fans on the terraces can't see". I'm not sure if my foray into prose had any effect, but the platform never appeared again. Oh how I miss those times at Brandon. The C O never lost sight of the importance of providing the fans with the best meeting presentation he could , one of several attributes he had which made Coventry Speedway the place it was.He was always searching for ways to improve the evening out for his crowd. I recall one occassion when he was doing his usual pre meeting rider presentation he went to great lengths to explain to all that he was trialling a new " throat microphone" which allowed him to allowed him to address the crowd without the use of the traditional hand held device & that he " did hope" everyone could hear him properly . He always struck me as a very proud man who cared about the supporters & always provided VFM , I just wish there were a few more like him around the sport today. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted September 27, 2021 Report Share Posted September 27, 2021 On 9/26/2021 at 4:20 PM, truthsayer said: Almost every sport is essentially a 'participation' sport. In other words, people pay their dues and take part for their own entertainment. Then, at some level, people pay to watch and it becomes a 'spectator' or 'professional' sport. The amateur ranks far outweigh the professional ones. British speedway is the only sport I can think of where the vast majority of meetings take place in front of paying spectators. But there are not enough riders and not enough facilities for riders to practice and develop. There needs to be an amateur level. Not just an amateur level, but a predominantly amateur level. Seriously. 90% of British speedway should be amateur, 5% 'semi-professional' and no more than 5% fully professional. Speedway is a relatively cheap form of motorsport, especially at an amateur level. For example, a rider in a support class at British super bikes will pay £400 for entry fees, £1000 for tyres and £100 for fuel each weekend. That's doing it cheap in one of the lower classes, and without the cost of buying the motorcycles (think £20k) and repairing them. Out of the 160-ish riders competing in BSB this weekend, I'd suggest 130 are paying for the privilege, around 20 are cost neutral and only a few are actually making a living. At club level, 100% are paying for the privilege. Speedway doesn't have enough riders. This is the main flaw in the business plan. that was the worry in 1968 with BL2 but it worked out ok, lots of riders have drifted away due to lack of opportunity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dog Posted September 27, 2021 Report Share Posted September 27, 2021 Personally I think the first thing speedway needs to address are user friendly bikes. Bikes that riders can control on less than perfect surfaces, tyres that work on a wet surface, once you get the confidence in the paying public that a meeting will run to the end they may start to come back. As it is, the first sign of drizzle and everyone wants to give up! Unless it was monsoon conditions, I don't recall the issues we have now back in the day, and that was before dirt deflectors. Once the fans start coming back, then you can think about being more professional. Clubs need to be sustainable from the off and I think that starts with riders wages and equipment costs. Get back to basics and then move forward. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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