Why speedway is failing

[M.D]

1 hour ago, cowboy cookie returns? said:

I disagree although the other items you mention play a part.

You have to get some form of credibility back into the sport to try & attract new investment both though more spectators but more importantly through sponsorship & awareness though the media both digitally & print.

I used Chris Harris as an example a couple of weeks ago elsewhere on here. During one week in late August he rode for Peterborough, Birmingham & Ipswich. His week was completed by riding for Peterborough against Ipswich. That sort of thing is destroying any form of credibility the sport has.

To improve the issues you mentioned tracks, stadia etc you need the investment which requires credibility.

Doubling up & the guest fest also makes it impossible to have the emotional attachment supporters of team sport need with their team.

Lastly on the point of world-class riders the sport in at such a low point in this country that those world class riders aren't known outside of speedway over here.

I agree and I think the only way the sport can do this is by having a 2 league structure.

A top league of 8 or more clubs

a second league made up of semi Pro riders with the rest of the teams who wish to join with some form of pay structure

Any other teams can run amateur challange matches and open events

The top riders now in the championship will have to ride in just the pro league but they wont like it so this could be the stumbling block along with finding at least 8 teams who want to go pro

 

[The Dog]

6 hours ago, cowboy cookie returns? said:

I disagree although the other items you mention play a part.

You have to get some form of credibility back into the sport to try & attract new investment both though more spectators but more importantly through sponsorship & awareness though the media both digitally & print.

I used Chris Harris as an example a couple of weeks ago elsewhere on here. During one week in late August he rode for Peterborough, Birmingham & Ipswich. His week was completed by riding for Peterborough against Ipswich. That sort of thing is destroying any form of credibility the sport has.

To improve the issues you mentioned tracks, stadia etc you need the investment which requires credibility.

Doubling up & the guest fest also makes it impossible to have the emotional attachment supporters of team sport need with their team.

Lastly on the point of world-class riders the sport in at such a low point in this country that those world class riders aren't known outside of speedway over here.

Difficult to pinpoint why fans are leaving, it's just a collaboration of lots of things and probably just personal opinion for most. 

My beef is the amount of messing about that goes on at each and every meeting, whether it be riders at the tapes, adjustments at the Pit gate or tractor racing. That all combines to me eventually walking away. 

As we're using Harris as an example, it doesn't bother me that he rides for Peterborough in a different league because I'm only interested in what he does for Birmingham as well as the other Birmingham riders. Your affiliation is with whoever rides for your team. 

We'll always agree to disagree on why speedway is failing and all the issues are valid points, how we combine to make it all viable is the tricky part... 

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

Difficult to pinpoint why fans are leaving, it's just a collaboration of lots of things and probably just personal opinion for most. 

My beef is the amount of messing about that goes on at each and every meeting, whether it be riders at the tapes, adjustments at the Pit gate or tractor racing. That all combines to me eventually walking away. 

As we're using Harris as an example, it doesn't bother me that he rides for Peterborough in a different league because I'm only interested in what he does for Birmingham as well as the other Birmingham riders. Your affiliation is with whoever rides for your team. 

We'll always agree to disagree on why speedway is failing and all the issues are valid points, how we combine to make it all viable is the tricky part... 

I personally don't see doubling up as a major issue...

It isn't ideal, but we don't have cross league cup comps so no major drama for me...

But being allowed to ride for all and sundry? With the operating model being drawn up to actively encourage it?

Now that's a completely different matter and is ludicrous...

Over the past few days we have seen a rider decide to not race for his own team after riding for a few others as a guest in the week leading up to their meeting, as he was tired, and needed rest. So a guest was brought in...

And tonight a rider cannot ride for his own club because the rules say he has to sit it out, as a rider who has replaced him for 28 days only must ride instead...

But that rider is now iinjured so instead a guest will come in...

Barmy on both accounts...

Lets face it, if those who run it don't take it seriously you have zero chance of the fans doing so...

Edited September 13, 2021 by mikebv

[Grand Central]

Doubling up is definitely 'an issue' for me.

Funilly enough it does not (to my knowledge) affect my frequency of attendance, at the moment ... But it just thoroughly pisses me off, all the time, like toothache.

Anything that consistently antagonises a lifelong supporter who is still attending MUST be a bad thing to be avoided ... In the end it will piss me off too much, I bet.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Grand Central

[IainB]

14 hours ago, Grand Central said:

Doubling up is definitely 'an issue' for me.

Funilly enough it does not (to my knowledge) affect my frequency of attendance, at the moment ... But it just thoroughly pisses me off, all the time, like toothache.

Anything that consistently antagonises a lifelong supporter who is still attending MUST be a bad thing to be avoided ... In the end it will piss me off too much, I bet.

Look at Peterborough, they're already running R/R for a rider who got injured riding for Glasgow, can't find (or weren't allowed to depending on who you believe) a replacement and could easily lose Scott Nicolls riding for Kent, Chris Harris riding for Birmingham, MPT riding for Redcar, Hans Andersen riding for Leicester or Bjarne Pedersen riding for Plymouth... or any of the other clubs they may ride for around Europe

[HackneyHawk]

Guests and 'doubling up' is ludicrous but a symptom of Speedway dying, not a cause in my opinion.

 

[chunky]

Everyone focuses on "credibiity", but that his little or nothing to do with it. If it was an enjoyable and entertaining night out, most wouldn't give a toss about credibility...

[lbw]

Next season:

One league. 5 riders per team of which one must be a British rising star at reserve (no.5). 15 heats. This will give the top 4 a minimum of 6 rides (unless replaced by a reserve) each and the no.5 a minimum of 4 rides. Then there will be the nominated heat 15 so 2 of the riders will have an additional ride. Possibly no tactical rides but a reserve may come in twice.

This will end all the doubling up nonsense and riders will have more rides during a meeting therefore cutting out the need to ride for 2 teams.

More variety of teams to watch for the fans and a team of their own to identify with instead of watching all these 'select' teams.

Also introduce a handicap ko cup competition for teams to compete for, you want more passing? Well handicap racing is the way to go and this would be a fantastic introduction to go alongside the standard league format (with the changes suggested above). 

Also of course keep the NDL running.

Edited September 14, 2021 by PirateShip

[cowboy cookie returns?]

39 minutes ago, chunky said:

Everyone focuses on "credibiity", but that his little or nothing to do with it. If it was an enjoyable and entertaining night out, most wouldn't give a toss about credibility...

It has everything to do with it if you want to run a league or cup competition. Without credibility you won't get major backers unless they are speedway fans. There are plenty on here who have said credibility is a major issue & why they have given up!

If you want to run a Micky mouse league that means nothing to anyone bar about 20000 people nationwide each week then you don't need it.

Just to put that in context 20000 people a week roughly attend UK speedway possibly less if the same person attendeds more that one meeting. My local football club Ipswich had more than that to watch league one game on Saturday.

 

[chunky]

15 minutes ago, cowboy cookie returns? said:

It has everything to do with it if you want to run a league or cup competition. Without credibility you won't get major backers unless they are speedway fans. There are plenty on here who have said credibility is a major issue & why they have given up!

If you want to run a Micky mouse league that means nothing to anyone bar about 20000 people nationwide each week then you don't need it.

Just to put that in context 20000 people a week roughly attend UK speedway possibly less if the same person attendeds more that one meeting. My local football club Ipswich had more than that to watch league one game on Saturday.

 

There have ALWAYS been crazy rules - rider control, for example - but people still showed up... It doesn't matter how cheap or credible something is if it's not enjoyable.

[mikebv]

2 hours ago, chunky said:

Everyone focuses on "credibiity", but that his little or nothing to do with it. If it was an enjoyable and entertaining night out, most wouldn't give a toss about credibility...

But if you want to sell it as a team sport there has to be emotional attachment to that team..

Or simply no point in doing it...

UK Speedway obviously cannot/choose not to (delete as applicable), run it as a team sport "properly" therefore their operating model cannot do anything positive whatsoever, but can only impact it negatively..

Only the riders benefit from the operating model, team sponsors and fans definitely dont..

I 100% agree if what you had was entertaining then it could work, sadly when what you are watching comes under the word "contrived", getting people to buy into in more than once or twice initially will take some doing..

The lack of any league sponsor, or major company team sponsorship speaks volumes for its operating model as no company would want to put their name to something so made up..

Riders can pick and choose when to turn up, and have a night off as they are tired...

Or get stopped from riding for their own team when fit, after representing their other team several times in the previous few days..

Both scenarios resulting in guests, as shown this week..

Teams will go into the play offs not allowed to sign replacements for genuinely injured riders out for the season, and instead get to use track specialist ringers as guests..

You would need a seasons worth of full on entertainment in every meeting to make all the above nonsense get accepted..

Speedway should just either decide to do "it properly" or not at all, as the current "fudge our way through" simply wont cut it..

And by "doing it properly" either run (at least) the top league with credibility, or run individual meetings similar to Grass tracks, Superbikes, MX and MotoGp, with decent fields and prize money..

When you have to collude with the promoters that what you are watching is "real" they have a serious problem, however....

The raw product of Speedway racing can be uniquely exhilarating from a spectating perspective...

So THAT is what they should sell..

Meaningful meetings, with a decent standard of rider, all racing for a decent prize pot, on days or nights when the healthiest crowd can be attracted to generate some atmosphere, at a price point conducive to attract, rather than prohibit, the fans from turning up..

If that's within a team framework then fine, and if it isnt, then also fine...

 

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by mikebv

[Hawk127]

Mikebv sums it up nicely. Anyone who really thinks that you have a local team is in the main deluded. You have individual riders who are self employed and financially need to look after to number so will ride for anybody anywhere as long as they are earning. Individuals who rarely team ride or look out for their partner in a heat. So you have individuals who conveniently link themselves to a club name for their own benefit. No loyalty no local input, rarely out and about locally promoting their’ club and dictating when they ride, the type of track and not forgetting the weather has to be perfect. If a cat or dog pisses on a track, let’s abandon the meeting. People wonder why no one wants to be a major sponsor and TV uses the sport as a filler. Wholesale changes needed but it will never happen. It has lost its way and can never be compared to the set ups in other countries. It has fallen on its sword.

[Fromafar]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

There have ALWAYS been crazy rules - rider control, for example - but people still showed up... It doesn't matter how cheap or credible something is if it's not enjoyable.

Not as many people showing up now though.

[Humphrey Appleby]

3 hours ago, chunky said:

Everyone focuses on "credibiity", but that his little or nothing to do with it. If it was an enjoyable and entertaining night out, most wouldn't give a toss about credibility...

Although it could be argued that never managed to attract the same media coverage or anything like the sponsors that some other sports did. That's did for it in the end, when the crowds started dropping away. 

[chunky]

55 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Not as many people showing up now though.

Not many bloody teams to follow now...

[chunky]

1 hour ago, mikebv said:

But if you want to sell it as a team sport there has to be emotional attachment to that team..

For me, the biggest obstacle for it as a"team" sport is the fact that clubs can't use the riders they want, and riders can't ride for the clubs they want, because teams seem to be solely constructed using averages. With the ridiculously low points limits, riders are forced out not only from their teams, but their leagues...

[mikebv]

3 hours ago, chunky said:

There have ALWAYS been crazy rules - rider control, for example - but people still showed up... It doesn't matter how cheap or credible something is if it's not enjoyable.

But back then you got to watch the worlds best on TV on one of only three channels most Saturday afternoons, with many of them household names..

And then had your tea...

And then went to watch the same lads ride at your local track..

For a small dent in your disposable income.. 

With England ruling the roost in the Speedway World...

Meaning the domestic leagues fed off the international success being beamed into (literally) millions of homes..

And if PC or Ivan were "elsewhere" and a guest replaced them, you found out at the track, after you had paid to get in, not days in advance..

Then the USA and the Danes took over..

So Promoters brought more of them over..

And then more Swedes, Norwegians, Aussies, Czechs, NZ's, Finns, Poles, etc etc etc..

And then viewing figures dropped because England were no longer winning, nor even looking like winning..

So the TV companies stopped beaming the sport into millions of homes...

So then crowds started to drop in domestic racing.. 

Meaning inflation busting admission fees started to rise to pay for all these overseas stars, and the drop in crowd levels..

And that was 35 or so years ago..

Yet the same operating model has taken place all that time until today where we now seem to have realised that a successful national team might help fill some domestic league meetings with fans..

Yet that is undermined by all that nonsense that still exists with "guests", ridiculous made up rules, poor track prep etc, but is now done in a 24/7 social media glare which (quite rightly), holds it up to the ridicule it deserves.. 

People's disposable income has shrunk due to so much modern technology in the home and life in general being "a basic need", and not a luxury, with monthly outgoings very high in many homes..

Nowadays a Speedway meeting doesnt leave a small dent in the disposable income anymore, but a significant one..

What you could do and get away with in the 70's and 80's you cannot now..

The Worlds moved on, but UK Speedway didn't, and to a huge degree, still hasn't. .

Edited September 14, 2021 by mikebv

[cowboy cookie returns?]

22 minutes ago, mikebv said:

But back then you got to watch the worlds best on TV on one of only three channels most Saturday afternoons, with many of them household names..

And then had your tea...

And then went to watch the same lads ride at your local track..

For a small dent in your disposable income.. 

With England ruling the roost in the Speedway World...

Meaning the domestic leagues fed off the international success being beamed into (literally) millions of homes..

And if PC or Ivan were "elsewhere" and a guest replaced them, you found out at the track, after you had paid to get in, not days in advance..

Then the USA and the Danes took over..

So Promoters brought more of them over..

And then more Swedes, Norwegians, Aussies, Czechs, NZ's, Finns, Poles, etc etc etc..

And then viewing figures dropped because England were no longer winning, nor even looking like winning..

So the TV companies stopped beaming the sport into millions of homes...

So then crowds started to drop in domestic racing.. 

Meaning inflation busting admission fees started to rise to pay for all these overseas stars, and the drop in crowd levels..

And that was 35 or so years ago..

Yet the same operating model has taken place all that time until today where we now seem to have realised that a successful national team might help fill some domestic league meetings with fans..

Yet that is undermined by all that nonsense that still exists with "guests", ridiculous made up rules, poor track prep etc, but is now done in a 24/7 social media glare which (quite rightly), holds it up to the ridicule it deserves.. 

People's disposable income has shrunk due to so much modern technology in the home and life in general being "a basic need", and not a luxury, with monthly outgoings very high in many homes..

Nowadays a Speedway meeting doesnt leave a small dent in the disposable income anymore, but a significant one..

What you could do and get away with in the 70's and 80's you cannot now..

The Worlds moved on, but UK Speedway didn't, and to a huge degree, still hasn't. .

Totally spot on, you & I have the same thoughts.

They have had years to come up with something better and 10 very good years with SKY involved but did the square route of nothing.

Now the sport is to fragile with such a small fanbase it can't afford to change.

[chunky]

16 minutes ago, mikebv said:

But back then you got to watch the worlds best on TV on one of only three channels most Saturday afternoons, with many of them household names..

And then had your tea...

And then went to watch the same lads ride at your local track..

For a small dent in your disposable income.. 

With England ruling the roost in the Speedway World...

Meaning the domestic leagues fed off the international success being beamed into (literally) millions of homes..

And if PC or Ivan were "elsewhere" and a guest replaced them, you found out at the track, after you had paid to get in, not days in advance..

Then the USA and the Danes took over..

So Promoters brought more of them over..

And then more Swedes, Norwegians, Aussies, Czechs, NZ's, Finns, Poles, etc etc etc..

And then viewing figures dropped because England were no longer winning, nor even looking like winning..

So the TV companies stopped beaming the sport into millions of homes...

Sorry, but that is a gross exaggeration; "most" Saturday afternoons? We had maybe half a dozen meetings on 'World of Sport', and The Internationale on 'Grandstand'.

Another gross exaggeration is "England ruling the roost". Okay, we did good in 1980...

Don't blame it on the foreigners either! They brought skill and glamour - and increased crowds. Anyway, packing teams with foreigners hasn't hurt football any...

Viewing figure dropped because - as many have stated on here - speedway ceased to be "cool". Don't ask me why, it just happened.

It started to really stagnate with the redevelopment of stadia (particularly those in city centres, of which there were many), and we were forced out into the sticks. That's those that were able to survive of course. Then, the death of greyhound racing hammered another few nails into our coffin.

[mikebv]

26 minutes ago, chunky said:

Sorry, but that is a gross exaggeration; "most" Saturday afternoons? We had maybe half a dozen meetings on 'World of Sport', and The Internationale on 'Grandstand'.

Another gross exaggeration is "England ruling the roost". Okay, we did good in 1980...

Don't blame it on the foreigners either! They brought skill and glamour - and increased crowds. Anyway, packing teams with foreigners hasn't hurt football any...

Viewing figure dropped because - as many have stated on here - speedway ceased to be "cool". Don't ask me why, it just happened.

It started to really stagnate with the redevelopment of stadia (particularly those in city centres, of which there were many), and we were forced out into the sticks. That's those that were able to survive of course. Then, the death of greyhound racing hammered another few nails into our coffin.

The 70's and (very early), 80's were dominated by Englands success at WTC, Best Pairs, and Individual level with PC and Michael Lee, two sportsmen known as well as any in the country..

PC must have been worth the admission alone at most tracks domestically after watching him thrill the watching millions on World Of Sport throughout the Speedway season, with several 100 (at least), going just to see him..

And even when not winning England always were in with a chance of success so would keep the watching viewer interested by being in contention...

Then the foreign contingent took over..

And some may have engaged crowds by their colourful antics and cheery disposition, and also no doubt raised standards significantly given the talent of some of them.. 

However, it was then the free for all that took place whereby any number of foreign journeymen riders were brought over to replace any number of other foreign journeymen riders ad nauseam that set the rot in..

People just lost interest because there wasnt enough to keep them interested...

Riders you had no affinity with, being replaced with riders you had no affinity with, was not a great fan engagement plan..

Nor were the regular price increases to pay for the overseas lads and the drop in crowds.. 

And of course having so many places filled by non GB riders impacted internationally as GB started to struggle due to a lack of talent coming through..

Football brings dozens of foreign players over because they have the money to invest/speculate..

Speedway spent its money from Sky (millions and millions), on ensuring the top riders rode here, rather than investing in some stand alone infrastructure..

And the top lads promptly cleared off when the Sky money dropped...

There are a plethora of reasons of why we are where we are today but there is no doubt so much of it is down to those who have ran it..

Death by a thousand cuts is usually done to others and not to yourself.. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by mikebv