Why speedway is failing

[IainB]

14 hours ago, The Dog said:

Whatever happened to the long list of moto crosers and grasstrackers that the BSPA gathered to try out speedway? Didn't they get names and emails from a bike show giving them free try outs? A few years ago now so I'm a bit sketchy on the facts... 

You would have thought that the 100's or 1,000's of motocross riders would have fancied their chances of taking the British Speedway world by storm with such a small pool of around 100 riders to compete with.

[The Dog]

And the chance to earn money, something that very few do in moto x 

[enotian]

5 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

But they might have persuaded the other professional leagues to their way of thinking by pointing out the potential amounts of money going to the FIM and out of the sport to a private promoter with little or no skin in the domestic speedway game. A total lack of vision combined with the sticking of heads in the sand... 

 

Isn't that the angle though? Does the SGP Promoter have a long term vision for the product? If they do, surely to maximise income the more varied nationalities and higher standard competitors the better. Or is SGP sustainable with 90% of the rounds and competitors in/from Poland? Won by a Pole every year? That's ultimately the direction of travel if the domestic leagues collapse. FIM seem to be conscious of this based on them turning the World Team Cup into the SON to increase the number of genuinely competitive nations.

It's like companies who have a successful product but don't do R&D into new products and then struggle once their successful product starts to sell less.

So the SGP promoters should have more than a passing interest in their future supply chain (aka clubs providing riders).  Now whether that's a direct input like BSI(?) did with Reading Bulldogs(?) or just facilitating the health of the domestic league structures by better enabling access to riders, having thriving domestic competitions can only benefit them in the long run.

You can't change the past but you can try to work with these authorities for mutual benefit.

  

[enotian]

6 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

I'd possibly even abolish SGP qualifiers as we know it, and select riders based on their averages or some sort of season-long 'second-half' qualification competition in the main professional leagues. You might want to have some qualifying events for riders who don't ride in these competitions to gain 'ranking points' or maybe a place or two in the SGP, and these could be staged in the smaller speedway nations. But I find it absurd that a GP competition uses a knockout format to determine places in the competition.

 

 

I was thinking more along the lines of holding the whole qualifying competition over a weekend at the same venue. Riders nominated by their national federation. 4 qualifiers (1 Friday night three across Saturday) top three into the Final on Sunday next four into the last chance qualifier on the Sunday prior to the Final. Top three from that plus a home wildcard into the Final. Split the qualifiers into Continental Final (riders from mainland Europe), European Final (any European), Scandinavian/Nordic Final and Overseas Final (AUS, USA, GB etc) to ensure a mix of nationalities make the Final.  Call it the Inter Continental Final with the top three qualifying for next seasons SGP. You crown 5 titleholders all over and done with in one weekend at one location.

Surely that sort of content would attract plenty of spectators and TV deals or streaming sales across the competing nations. You might even attract all of the GP riders to participate if the exposure and prize money makes it worth their while.  No need to travel around Europe (probably at a loss) to chase the dream of a spot in the SGP series.

The recent Grand Prix Challenge was a complete non event. Even if the track hadn't been terrible it was a total anti-climax in front of a sparse crowd. Probably the twelfth biggest speedway meeting of the year and nothing made of it, despite having dragged riders across Europe to qualify for it.  

[enotian]

7 hours ago, mikebv said:

But why should British Speedway be impacted by what the FIM do?

My point was that if there were more structure to the FIM calendar then it might give British Promoters the chance to structure the domestic season around that Calendar. Allow clubs to run meetings on Friday and Saturday nights if that's when bigger crowds can be attracted. Allowing more riders to participate in British speedway then there might be a chance for the British promoters to provide the type of product which is attractive to spectators.  Maybe a 10 team top division  with no doubling up (except for perhaps British youngsters) and no scratch teams of guests because x rider is away in Timbuktu losing money while they try to qualify for whatever series or representing GP in the European Pairs nobody sends their best riders to.

I'm certain that the likes of Holder, Ellis and Bewley have all missed meetings riding elsewhere this season.  And certainly the likes of Kemp, Rowe, Brennan, Flint and Palin have all had to miss meetings to ride in youth championships. Effectively an audition to get a Polish contract probably at the riders expense and therefore effectively subsidised by British speedway.

Everyone benefits if these riders progress Internationally but if there's no sustainable domestic scene there'll be no riders to progress. So there has to be a compromise or reciprocal agreement which benefits both International and Domestic authorities. Rugby and Cricket both acknowledge this symbiosis successfully. Football still does even though the club brands are much bigger than the International teams.

Speedway is in danger of cutting off its own supply chain.  We've already seen New Zealand and Norway effectively disappear.  Who knows how long Becker can carry the US flag. And if British speedway keeps shrinking how long before GB and Australia are in the same boat. At a time when most sports (all businesses) are trying to expand into new markets speedway is shrinking there's.

I'd probably still watch SGP if it was 16 Poles in a series ridden entirely in Poland as long as the action was good.  But I think I'd be in the minority on that.    

[cowboy cookie returns?]

18 hours ago, mikebv said:

Speaks volumes about what was "on offer" doesnt it?

Why pay to watch contrived septets in a competition devoid of credibility or status, when you have already paid Sky and can watch it at home? 

Out of 5 of us who used to attend pretty much each week, up until 10 or so years ago, only one now does so regularly, with the rest of us getting our fix by watching the TV and taking it in turns to "host the evening"...

We will though all go to Cardiff and several of us will go to Poland to watch League racing and GP's, as well as attend FIM events over here..

And "if the weather is nice" we will visit a few tracks on the odd occasion..

Cant beat a bit of "live" Speedway now and again can you?..

I (and the others), would still go every week if the leagues werent ran so 'Mickey Mouse' and actually had some kudos in winning..

And there are more than a "fair few" out there like me I would suspect who just need some persuasion to attend again...

(A "fair few" that is more than actually  currently attend I would suggest)..

And by "persuasion", I mean those in charge actually running the sport properly, either in a league system or in an individual one..

Either way, make it mean something and many who "used to go" regularly, and still keep a very keen interest in the sport, might start to attend regularly again.

One thing for sure though..

To keep doing the same thing every single season isnt an option surely is it?

Spot on. There used to be a group of us who attended each week & slowly we were driven away by the 'micky mouse' approach.

So in the this our local track has lost 8-10 people who attended each week. 

[mikebv]

5 hours ago, cowboy cookie returns? said:

Spot on. There used to be a group of us who attended each week & slowly we were driven away by the 'micky mouse' approach.

So in the this our local track has lost 8-10 people who attended each week. 

As I said, I truly do believe there are many, many more people who dont attend regularly (but still call themselves "Speedway Fans and remain very keen followers of the sport), than do go each week... 

A huge market to attract back as it clearly is out there..

You see many discussing how they can get "new followers" interested, yet it would be much easier to just get the "ex regulars" back .

I would suggest at most tracks a minimum 50% rise in attendances with many tracks having over a 100% uplift if all those who have basically "given up on British Speedway" came back to it..

[Humphrey Appleby]

14 hours ago, enotian said:

I was thinking more along the lines of holding the whole qualifying competition over a weekend at the same venue. Riders nominated by their national federation. 4 qualifiers (1 Friday night three across Saturday) top three into the Final on Sunday next four into the last chance qualifier on the Sunday prior to the Final. Top three from that plus a home wildcard into the Final. Split the qualifiers into Continental Final (riders from mainland Europe), European Final (any European), Scandinavian/Nordic Final and Overseas Final (AUS, USA, GB etc) to ensure a mix of nationalities make the Final.  Call it the Inter Continental Final with the top three qualifying for next seasons SGP. You crown 5 titleholders all over and done with in one weekend at one location.

Surely that sort of content would attract plenty of spectators and TV deals or streaming sales across the competing nations. You might even attract all of the GP riders to participate if the exposure and prize money makes it worth their while.  No need to travel around Europe (probably at a loss) to chase the dream of a spot in the SGP series.

Not sure that such a competition would attract plenty of spectators or TV deals. It didn't when the World Championship featuring all the top riders was a knockout competition, and I'm not sure what the interest would be in European/Nordic/Overseas meetings held at a neutral venue without the top riders.

I'd think such an event would depend very heavily on spectators to pay its way, and having so many meetings at one venue (or even one country) in such a short time would have high costs and wouldn't attract enough local interest quite aside from the track preparation demands. The SWC held in one venue/country didn't really pull the fans, so I'm not convinced this would be goer financial or logistically. 

The bottom line too, is that these qualifying meetings are distributed around Europe to give different countries a chance of staging a 'World Championship' event. It probably also helps to spread the financial risk as well.

14 hours ago, enotian said:

The recent Grand Prix Challenge was a complete non event. Even if the track hadn't been terrible it was a total anti-climax in front of a sparse crowd. Probably the twelfth biggest speedway meeting of the year and nothing made of it, despite having dragged riders across Europe to qualify for it.  

Fundamentally, I think it's daft to have a knockout competition deciding the places in a GP series, and particularly with so few SGP places on offer. As I said, I'd rather have all or most of the riders qualify from some sort of season-long competition linked to the major professional leagues, with perhaps a qualification path (e.g. via the European Championship) for riders outside of those leagues.  

[Humphrey Appleby]

13 hours ago, enotian said:

My point was that if there were more structure to the FIM calendar then it might give British Promoters the chance to structure the domestic season around that Calendar. Allow clubs to run meetings on Friday and Saturday nights if that's when bigger crowds can be attracted. Allowing more riders to participate in British speedway then there might be a chance for the British promoters to provide the type of product which is attractive to spectators.  Maybe a 10 team top division  with no doubling up (except for perhaps British youngsters) and no scratch teams of guests because x rider is away in Timbuktu losing money while they try to qualify for whatever series or representing GP in the European Pairs nobody sends their best riders to.

I think that horse has bolted now, and the British leagues just need to try and move forward in a financial sustainable manner without trying to accommodate the multiple International demands they derive no benefit from. If that means teams essentially being made-up of juniors but who're able to turn up every Friday or Saturday, then that's what needs to happen.

[enotian]

6 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Not sure that such a competition would attract plenty of spectators or TV deals. It didn't when the World Championship featuring all the top riders was a knockout competition, and I'm not sure what the interest would be in European/Nordic/Overseas meetings held at a neutral venue without the top riders.

Yeah you're probably right.  It would probably need the top riders to attract interest.

Just interested to see if speedway can embrace festival culture.  Not sure about post pandemic but prior to there's been a definite shift to weekend (3 day) events. Whereby people can justify spending more to attend over a couple of days.  Many people who never regularly attend music concerts will look forward to spending a weekend at a music festival. They maybe only want to see a couple of bands but it's escapism for a weekend and you enjoy the atmosphere. I've not been to a MotoGP, WSB or BSB weekend but that's the same appeal. I don't think everyone watches every race, they mingle with people who have similar interest, maybe meet up with friends from afar. We've just had the Magic Weekend here in Newcastle with about 40,000 people from Yorkshire and Lancashire descending on Newcastle. They don't watch every match. I'm sure some of them never leave the pubs but they have a great weekend away and spend money on accommodation and refreshments in the City. The double round SGP's are a move in that direction.

So the Poles might disappear when the  Nordic or Overseas Finals are on but it doesn't matter.  They've paid for the full weekend and they get to see the four meetings with Poles in them if that's what they want to do. It's different to putting a tournament on where you pay for individual meetings. Not surprising that the Poles don't buy tickets to watch a meeting without any interest. [exchange Poles for any other nationality]

MotoGP has blanket TV coverage over three days but I doubt they get decent viewing figures other than race day. But its live content to fill a sports channels schedule. They pay to show the race day but use the qualifying content to pad out their schedules.  Certainly speedway doesn't have that pull but make the event available to stream.  You only have one set up cost but can sell the weekend PPV for £50 or each individual meeting for £12 (the final £15)

I'm sure you're right that spreading the qualifiers around Europe is just a way of spreading the losses. So you're right, why bother if nobody is interested.  No one is obliged to provide a fair route for anyone to become world champion.  But if you can put together an event people would be interested in paying to see then why wouldn't you. And if that means a less disrupted domestic season then double bubble.       

[Humphrey Appleby]

37 minutes ago, enotian said:

Just interested to see if speedway can embrace festival culture.  Not sure about post pandemic but prior to there's been a definite shift to weekend (3 day) events. Whereby people can justify spending more to attend over a couple of days.  Many people who never regularly attend music concerts will look forward to spending a weekend at a music festival. They maybe only want to see a couple of bands but it's escapism for a weekend and you enjoy the atmosphere. I've not been to a MotoGP, WSB or BSB weekend but that's the same appeal. I don't think everyone watches every race, they mingle with people who have similar interest, maybe meet up with friends from afar. We've just had the Magic Weekend here in Newcastle with about 40,000 people from Yorkshire and Lancashire descending on Newcastle. They don't watch every match. I'm sure some of them never leave the pubs but they have a great weekend away and spend money on accommodation and refreshments in the City. The double round SGP's are a move in that direction.

For some reason, multi-day events in speedway never seem to have been popular. Not really understood why as it seems to work in other motorsports, and indeed ice speedway, but it is what it is.

[iris123]

5 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

For some reason, multi-day events in speedway never seem to have been popular. Not really understood why as it seems to work in other motorsports, and indeed ice speedway, but it is what it is.

Been t a couple that are fairly popular and were even more so years ago, although with Teterow the main attraction is the grass track and the speedway in the evening sort of clashes with peoples wish to parteee  But the Pardubice Golden helmet weekend is also quite popular

[steve roberts]

7 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

For some reason, multi-day events in speedway never seem to have been popular. Not really understood why as it seems to work in other motorsports, and indeed ice speedway, but it is what it is.

I enjoyed the two day World Final in Amsterdam.

[waiheke1]

8 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I enjoyed the two day World Final in Amsterdam.

But it was hardly considered a success, and the following year it reverted to a one-off.  The racing was pretty mediocre, but I'm sure for a speedway fan it was an enjoyable couple of days, and I bet Amsterdam made for a good night after the first meeting. 

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, waiheke1 said:

But it was hardly considered a success, and the following year it reverted to a one-off.  The racing was pretty mediocre, but I'm sure for a speedway fan it was an enjoyable couple of days, and I bet Amsterdam made for a good night after the first meeting. 

It was not an ideal track by any stretch of the imagination (as most 'temporary' tracks tend to be) but from a travelling 'tourist' point of view it did tick many boxes (unlike Norden and Vojens - although, thankfully, I booked on tours which allowed for touristy things!). I'm not really sure why a two day final should be looked upon as a failure (Ice Speedway had been doing it for years as it required the riders to adjust to changing track conditions and ability over ten races) but that was the general consensus made after the event. It did help, from a personal point of view, in allowing Hans to take control on the second day thus becoming champion for a second time!

Edited September 6, 2021 by steve roberts

[OGT]

9 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

For some reason, multi-day events in speedway never seem to have been popular. Not really understood why as it seems to work in other motorsports, and indeed ice speedway, but it is what it is.

You'll find that in BSB for example, a lot of fans make a weekend of it by camping at the circuit from Friday/ Saturday until Sunday. Many will follow the series around the country too. Obviously a good proportion of fans are also motorcyclists, following their favourite rider, manufacturer or team. 

Then of course you have your locally based fans attending the whole weekend.

Could never see speedway fans supporting two day events in this way and in those numbers TBH. 

Motorcycle racing fans and speedway supporters are different gravy. 

[steve roberts]

37 minutes ago, OGT said:

You'll find that in BSB for example, a lot of fans make a weekend of it by camping at the circuit from Friday/ Saturday until Sunday. Many will follow the series around the country too. Obviously a good proportion of fans are also motorcyclists, following their favourite rider, manufacturer or team. 

Then of course you have your locally based fans attending the whole weekend.

Could never see speedway fans supporting two day events in this way and in those numbers TBH. 

Motorcycle racing fans and speedway supporters are different gravy. 

...and yet you hear all the time that fans enjoy the Cardiff "Experience" would it be better to run it over two days (although that would presumeably cause issues with GP Series) so that the "Experience" can be prolonged?

[OveFundinFan]

2 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...and yet you hear all the time that fans enjoy the Cardiff "Experience" would it be better to run it over two days (although that would presumeably cause issues with GP Series) so that the "Experience" can be prolonged?

Would it work? Two day event would mean fans staying overnight so extra costs involved and currently many do the gp without staying overnight so it would be a real additional cost. For bsb weekends, usually held away from towns/cities many would camp out on provided sites, could that work in Cardiff? I doubt there would be double go weekends once the COVID restrictions are over, so the 2nd day would be a different type of meeting. Would this be so high profile to retain interest. After all, a big part of the Cardiff experience is the fact it is a gp and world class riders.

Edited September 6, 2021 by OveFundinFan

[steve roberts]

8 hours ago, OveFundinFan said:

Would it work? Two day event would mean fans staying overnight so extra costs involved and currently many do the gp without staying overnight so it would be a real additional cost. For bsb weekends, usually held away from towns/cities many would camp out on provided sites, could that work in Cardiff? I doubt there would be double go weekends once the COVID restrictions are over, so the 2nd day would be a different type of meeting. Would this be so high profile to retain interest. After all, a big part of the Cardiff experience is the fact it is a gp and world class riders.

...which is what OGT in a previous post touched upon. I personally enjoyed the Amsterdam two day esperience and made the trip more rewarding in my opinion.

[Humphrey Appleby]

13 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

But it was hardly considered a success, and the following year it reverted to a one-off.  The racing was pretty mediocre, but I'm sure for a speedway fan it was an enjoyable couple of days, and I bet Amsterdam made for a good night after the first meeting. 

Ultimately, I don't really see the mileage in basically just repeating the Saturday event on a Sunday with the same riders. Other motorsports will generally have practice, qualifying and different types of race (if not different classes) on different days. Plus as others have said, you can usually camp overnight and not pay the ridiculous Cardiff hotel rates.

I know it seems to work with ice racing, but I think it's telling that the Amsterdam experiment was never really repeated in speedway.