Why speedway is failing

[Vince]

1 hour ago, mikebv said:

Or an individual sport that becomes a 'travelling circus' akin to BSB where the best we have to offer over here (with meetings ran for all riders of differing abilities, but each meeting only having riders of similar ability), racing against each other at tracks around the country.. 

Either way, the sport needs a proper competition, properly promoted and properly marketed...

While I agree with much of what you say but unlike Road Race circuits which have a variety of uses Speedway tracks couldn't be maintained for 1 or 2 meetings a year. If it gets to that stage most of them will just be put to other use, mainly housing I suspect.

It's possible that some tracks could survive running a variety of meetings, amateur Speedway, flat track get grass track clubs to run an event, (I think there is a new sport in karts on shale ovals waiting to be started in the UK as well) where the riders pay an entry fee and it doesn't matter if spectators attend. At least you wouldn't be losing as much as some Speedway teams are reported to. There is no doubt that some of these things are already helping some teams survive but for many it's not an option.

[mikebv]

3 hours ago, JamesHarris said:

You are absolutely spot on. I put on here the other day that 88% of riders in the Premiership also ride in the Championship. Only 5 riders are exclusive to that league and one of them will soon be snapped up by a Championship team. It's a joke. 

Interesting to read how many double up as something that struck me on the two occasions I have been to watch Speedway this season, (but also all the times I have seen it on Eurosport), is the "bonhomie" that exists in the pits with riders of opposite teams...

Now, I completely understand that given the risks and the unique talent needed to compete, there will be lots of respect between "foes", but what I did notice was how many times opposition riders on both nights stood watching with their team mates from their "other" team even though riding against each other that night.. 

Now, with the best will in the world, human nature says that you are not going to risk injury (to either of you), by riding hard against a rider who will be sat next to you in the pits tomorrow night and maybe your partner in several races..

Rory Schlein got some criticism on here for his performance last night at Berwick on a 'damp' surface, however, he may be riding five for six times a week over the next month or so given the fixture congestion, so why would he take any undue risks? For both him and the other riders who could also be doing the same..

You dont earn in hospital and your next meeting may be a much better earner than the one you race in today...

When the sport is set up solely for riders to ride as much as they can, then the fans can't moan when the riders protect that opportunity and dont take too many risks when simply riding a Speedway bike is risk enough..

Edited August 8, 2021 by mikebv

[mikebv]

3 hours ago, Vince said:

While I agree with much of what you say but unlike Road Race circuits which have a variety of uses Speedway tracks couldn't be maintained for 1 or 2 meetings a year. If it gets to that stage most of them will just be put to other use, mainly housing I suspect.

It's possible that some tracks could survive running a variety of meetings, amateur Speedway, flat track get grass track clubs to run an event, (I think there is a new sport in karts on shale ovals waiting to be started in the UK as well) where the riders pay an entry fee and it doesn't matter if spectators attend. At least you wouldn't be losing as much as some Speedway teams are reported to. There is no doubt that some of these things are already helping some teams survive but for many it's not an option.

For me Vince, it would be more 10 or so meetings per track over the 6 months from April to September (March if Easter falls then)..

More meetings of course if the promotion feels they have the potential to be profitable.. 

20 tracks (with the IOW), means a minimum 200 meetings, which is a huge amount of Speedway..

Some will say that 10 meetings isnt enough for the landlord but the counter argument is if you dont ask you wont know, and given the Covid world we live in, when better than now to discuss?

And the fact is that even 100 matches per season at one venue still wouldnt provide anywhere near the money to the landowner that a housing estate built on the land would so that could be done at anytime..

Some individual as part of a "British Championship" with a round at every track, and a BIG prize fund, some "team racing" and some almost "Festival of Bike Racing" type meetings with Speedway, Grasstrack, MX racing, MX acrobatics, Pee Wee bikes, Quads, Karts etc... 

Plenty of time within meetings at each track to properly market it and get sponsors, which also means fans not expected to fork out more than a max two meetings per months salary..

One thing is for sure is that carrying on as we are surely can never be an option put on the table.. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by mikebv

[Humphrey Appleby]

3 hours ago, mikebv said:

20 tracks (with the IOW), means a minimum 200 meetings, which is a huge amount of Speedway..

The right number of meetings is the number that's sustainable.

200 fans might only be turning up a meeting, but they might still turn up to 20 meetings if they're held every week. If you only hold 10 meetings, you'd not only need to double the crowd to achieve the same amount of revenue, but some of your 200 regulars may find other things to do if meetings become more irregular. 

Fundamentally, you're in a downward spiral if you're saying that you want to cut the number of meetings so that tracks lose less money. That suggests that the business model (i.e. outgoings) is wrong in the first place, and it's not going to be any more sustainable in the long term until that's addressed.

I do think a fortnightly April-September model is perhaps more realistic nowadays, but that really depends on what the cost of admission is. If you could make it a tenner, then people might be persuaded to go twice as often compared to if it's 20 quid, and then might part with more money once inside the stadium. 

[steve roberts]

7 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

The right number of meetings is the number that's sustainable.

200 fans might only be turning up a meeting, but they might still turn up to 20 meetings if they're held every week. If you only hold 10 meetings, you'd not only need to double the crowd to achieve the same amount of revenue, but some of your 200 regulars may find other things to do if meetings become more irregular. 

Fundamentally, you're in a downward spiral if you're saying that you want to cut the number of meetings so that tracks lose less money. That suggests that the business model (i.e. outgoings) is wrong in the first place, and it's not going to be any more sustainable in the long term until that's addressed.

I do think a fortnightly April-September model is perhaps more realistic nowadays, but that really depends on what the cost of admission is. If you could make it a tenner, then people might be persuaded to go twice as often compared to if it's 20 quid, and then might part with more money once inside the stadium. 

...that's of course if the staging promoter receives the catering and bar takings? I recall a conversation with Steve Purchase who said that wasn't the case when he was promoter at Cowley. There'll always be an issue with revenue as long as stadiums are only let by the promoter. Very few, if any, are owned by the promoters which also proves a sticking point as regards facilities or the lack of them.

Edited August 9, 2021 by steve roberts

[Sidney the robin]

3 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...that's of course if the staging promoter receives the catering and bar takings? I recall a conversation with Steve Purchase who said that wasn't the case when he was promoter at Cowley. There'll always be an issue with revenue as long as stadiums are only let by the promoter. Very few, if any, are owned by the promoters which also proves a sticking point as regards facilities or the lack of them.

At Swindon not sure if this is accurate or not? the promotion earned nothing from the car parking, catering/ bars or souvenir sales.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Sidney the robin

[IainB]

19 hours ago, mikebv said:

One of the major issues for the sport (in this country) to overcome is "What actually is it?"..

Shoe horning an individual sport into a team concept works only if those individuals are 'exclusive' to one team in each league.

Eg Poland, Sweden..

Unfortunately what they do over here means that all sort of nonsense takes place to make up teams just to get a match on. Resulting in zero credibility or actual meaning.

This then pushes away even the most committed fans over time who become disillusioned with it.

(As let's be honest, if its meaningless why attend?)

With, (the very best you can hope for, if these fans dont completely disengage), is the only occasional visit replacing their past regular attendance.. 

Leaving just those who "buy the team jackets" and accept what they get without comment, alongside those who just go along to watch "the racing", but have no emotional attachment...

And unfortunately that will never be enough people to fund 7 Professionals all wanting plenty of money to pay for expensive equipment, (and often wanting twelve months salary for six months work)..

60 races worth of points money wont get covered by current crowd levels at too many tracks currently I would think.

Bottom line, is Speedway needs to decide what it is..

A team sport. (And if so do it properly or not at all)..

Or an individual sport that becomes a 'travelling circus' akin to BSB where the best we have to offer over here (with meetings ran for all riders of differing abilities, but each meeting only having riders of similar ability), racing against each other at tracks around the country.. 

Either way, the sport needs a proper competition, properly promoted and properly marketed...

I think the BSPL may be looking into withholding the riders' names that appear in the meeting. They are to enter stadiums in disguise before putting on a club race suit and will be instructed to not remove their helmet until the meeting is over and leaving the stadium in disguise. All riders will be given names like the old ITV show Gladiators... Riding at No 1 Jet, Riding at No 2 Wolf etc. etc.

Doubling up sorted!

15 hours ago, mikebv said:

Interesting to read how many double up as something that struck me on the two occasions I have been to watch Speedway this season, (but also all the times I have seen it on Eurosport), is the "bonhomie" that exists in the pits with riders of opposite teams...

Now, I completely understand that given the risks and the unique talent needed to compete, there will be lots of respect between "foes", but what I did notice was how many times opposition riders on both nights stood watching with their team mates from their "other" team even though riding against each other that night.. 

Now, with the best will in the world, human nature says that you are not going to risk injury (to either of you), by riding hard against a rider who will be sat next to you in the pits tomorrow night and maybe your partner in several races..

Rory Schlein got some criticism on here for his performance last night at Berwick on a 'damp' surface, however, he may be riding five for six times a week over the next month or so given the fixture congestion, so why would he take any undue risks? For both him and the other riders who could also be doing the same..

You dont earn in hospital and your next meeting may be a much better earner than the one you race in today...

When the sport is set up solely for riders to ride as much as they can, then the fans can't moan when the riders protect that opportunity and dont take too many risks when simply riding a Speedway bike is risk enough..

If you look at videos of Speedway of days gone by, you'll see that back in the 70's a rider very rarely even acknowledged another rider after a race, maybe the odd wave... These days they're fawning over each other after a race, it's embarrassing, imagine that at a Football match after an opponent had scored a goal against you!!!

[mikebv]

14 minutes ago, iainb said:

I think the BSPL may be looking into withholding the riders' names that appear in the meeting. They are to enter stadiums in disguise before putting on a club race suit and will be instructed to not remove their helmet until the meeting is over and leaving the stadium in disguise. All riders will be given names like the old ITV show Gladiators... Riding at No 1 Jet, Riding at No 2 Wolf etc. etc.

Doubling up sorted!

If you look at videos of Speedway of days gone by, you'll see that back in the 70's a rider very rarely even acknowledged another rider after a race, maybe the odd wave... These days they're fawning over each other after a race, it's embarrassing, imagine that at a Football match after an opponent had scored a goal against you!!!

Its noticeable in Poland how teams generally dont mix....

I presume its because the fans might not be too impressed to see riders laughing and joking with an opponent when their team are getting hammered... 

[cowboy cookie returns?]

Look no further than Newcastle yesterday.

A double header Newcastle v Poole followed by Newcastle v Plymouth. Alfie Bowtell rides for both Poole & Plymouth how can you take it seriously!!

[Gambo]

24 minutes ago, cowboy cookie returns? said:

Look no further than Newcastle yesterday.

A double header Newcastle v Poole followed by Newcastle v Plymouth. Alfie Bowtell rides for both Poole & Plymouth how can you take it seriously!!

Nothing new in that.

Rick Miller (I believe it was) rode for Coventry at Swindon and then FOR Swindon in the second match of the double header!

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, Gambo said:

Nothing new in that.

Rick Miller (I believe it was) rode for Coventry at Swindon and then FOR Swindon in the second match of the double header!

Max Fricke rode for the Aces against Poole one BHM morning, then went and rode for Poole at Leicester that evening...  

[NeilWatson]

1 hour ago, cowboy cookie returns? said:

Look no further than Newcastle yesterday.

A double header Newcastle v Poole followed by Newcastle v Plymouth. Alfie Bowtell rides for both Poole & Plymouth how can you take it seriously!!

Zach Cook also rode for Poole then Plymouth yesterday

[Humphrey Appleby]

11 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...that's of course if the staging promoter receives the catering and bar takings? I recall a conversation with Steve Purchase who said that wasn't the case when he was promoter at Cowley. There'll always be an issue with revenue as long as stadiums are only let by the promoter. Very few, if any, are owned by the promoters which also proves a sticking point as regards facilities or the lack of them.

Might be the case, but there's also merchandising, raffle tickets etc... 

[cowboy cookie returns?]

4 hours ago, Gambo said:

Nothing new in that.

Rick Miller (I believe it was) rode for Coventry at Swindon and then FOR Swindon in the second match of the double header!

Maybe nothing new, however still makes a mockery of the sport. With your reply it's also proof if proof was needed  that the powers that be are incapable of bringing about the change that is required. If Rick Miller also did something similar then the powers that be have done nothing in at least 30 years to try and correct it.

The only thing to have happened in 30 years is a steady decline in attendance numbers, national & local press coverage.

It's a sad fact but if speedway was a dog it would have been put out of its misery years ago.

Edited August 9, 2021 by cowboy cookie returns?

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Might be the case, but there's also merchandising, raffle tickets etc... 

I'm sure your right but catering and bar takings especially would amount to a very tidy sum but lost on the promoter.

[Fromafar]

21 hours ago, cowboy cookie returns? said:

Look no further than Newcastle yesterday.

A double header Newcastle v Poole followed by Newcastle v Plymouth. Alfie Bowtell rides for both Poole & Plymouth how can you take it seriously!!

That’s was my thoughts,if they had attracted new fans they must have been wondering.

[mikebv]

16 hours ago, cowboy cookie returns? said:

Maybe nothing new, however still makes a mockery of the sport. With your reply it's also proof if proof was needed  that the powers that be are incapable of bringing about the change that is required. If Rick Miller also did something similar then the powers that be have done nothing in at least 30 years to try and correct it.

The only thing to have happened in 30 years is a steady decline in attendance numbers, national & local press coverage.

It's a sad fact but if speedway was a dog it would have been put out of its misery years ago.

And of course you nowadays have the Internet to dissect such nonsense and spread it far and wide...

[Deano]

Why not have a separate competition. 

19 clubs all one league, 3 riders per team, no points limit but one rider must be from the current crop of  number 6 or 7 in a team.

The meeting is over a set number of laps say 30. A race is a standard 4 laps but a team manager can call it at any point ( say after two laps)

Team bonus point for fastest lap of the night.

riders use their own bikes, but fitted with sealed standard engines.

team managers and riders on centre green, open up the mikes so we all hear the tactics.

 

 

[waytogo28]

11 hours ago, Deano said:

riders use their own bikes, but fitted with sealed standard engines.

Without this, coming in sooner rather than later UK domestic speedway is all over.

[IainB]

1 hour ago, waytogo28 said:

Without this, coming in sooner rather than later UK domestic speedway is all over.

All that money going out of the sport to engine tuners... with absolutely zero return! I've never been to watch a Speedway meting to see how a rider goes on his newly tuned engine! Or with his newly added piece of "special" kit.

Edited August 11, 2021 by iainb