Peter Adams in the Star last week

[salty]

Just wishing to pick the brains of the BSP gang. Last week in the Star's feature on "Greatest Gaffers" Peter made reference to a rule whereby in 1982 BL teams could name four reserves and use any two of them in a meeting.

I don't have any recollection of that rule myself, though I can remember Cradley declaring their numbers 8,9 and 10.

Anybody got a better memory?

[steve roberts]

21 minutes ago, salty said:

Just wishing to pick the brains of the BSP gang. Last week in the Star's feature on "Greatest Gaffers" Peter made reference to a rule whereby in 1982 BL teams could name four reserves and use any two of them in a meeting.

I don't have any recollection of that rule myself, though I can remember Cradley declaring their numbers 8,9 and 10.

Anybody got a better memory?

I certainly don't recall such a rule personally?

[stevehone]

i remember there being some sort of squad system, didn't think it was that far back though. was it a way of using NL riders how they wanted?

[chunky]

15 hours ago, steve roberts said:

I certainly don't recall such a rule personally?

We're talking about British speedway, Steve; NOTHING should surprise you as far as rules - including people not even being made aware of the rules...

[salty]

14 hours ago, stevehone said:

i remember there being some sort of squad system, didn't think it was that far back though. was it a way of using NL riders how they wanted?

Adams definitely quotes 1982. The context was that Charles Ochiltree contacted him a week prior to Cradley's visit to Brandon to find out which reserves would be riding. Adams said he declined to confirm and subsequently he and Ochiltree never spoke again. He mentions the use of Wigg, but as I recall he was only used following Penhall's departure and not as a replacement for one of the other reserves.

[stevehone]

ahhh ok, don't get the star so didn't see it

[arnieg]

I thought I would clear this up by reading the 1982 Rulebook - how foolish was I think that would resolve the matter!!!

 

On reading the 1982 rulebook D1.3(a) makes it clear each team must declare a named seven, elsewhere (for example C4) there are rules restricting the use of loanees.

As always the rulebook is less than 100% clear (I can't find a clear statement on what replacements are allowed when a reserve should voluntarily absent themselves, B7 is probably the relevant sub-section) so it feels like Pete Adams was operating at the fringes of what was legal.

[salty]

2 hours ago, stevehone said:

ahhh ok, don't get the star so didn't see it

" My one big regret is falling out with Charles. I think it was 1982, it was when BL teams could name four reserves and use any two of them for any meeting. One of my four was Simon Wigg. It was near the end of the season...." Goes onto explain that Ochiltree wanted to know the team a week before so he could print extra programmes. Adams offered him six names but wasn't sure on the seventh. Ochiltree replies "It better not be Simon Wigg". Of course it was.

I'll dig out my programmes to see if that can shed any light. I know Cradley had started the season with Joe Owen as number 8, Drury at 9 and Pullen at 10 and used a number of riders to cover injuries to Andy Reid at reserve - Wayne Jackson and Bill Barratt spring to mind. 

[waiheke1]

3 hours ago, salty said:

" My one big regret is falling out with Charles. I think it was 1982, it was when BL teams could name four reserves and use any two of them for any meeting. One of my four was Simon Wigg. It was near the end of the season...." Goes onto explain that Ochiltree wanted to know the team a week before so he could print extra programmes. Adams offered him six names but wasn't sure on the seventh. Ochiltree replies "It better not be Simon Wigg". Of course it was.

I'll dig out my programmes to see if that can shed any light. I know Cradley had started the season with Joe Owen as number 8, Drury at 9 and Pullen at 10 and used a number of riders to cover injuries to Andy Reid at reserve - Wayne Jackson and Bill Barratt spring to mind. 

Jan Verner and Ian Gledhill also rode at reserve. 

[waiheke1]

5 hours ago, salty said:

Adams definitely quotes 1982. The context was that Charles Ochiltree contacted him a week prior to Cradley's visit to Brandon to find out which reserves would be riding. Adams said he declined to confirm and subsequently he and Ochiltree never spoke again. He mentions the use of Wigg, but as I recall he was only used following Penhall's departure and not as a replacement for one of the other reserves.

Not sure that's correct. He may only have been used after Penhall retired, but not as a replacement for Penhall...pretty sure they used R/R to cover Bruce and Wiggy at reserve in their final match at hyde rd (not certain if that was in the BL or the KO cup)

[moxey63]

The four reserve rule was utilized at Belle Vue during 1982. Ian Thomas had been appointed team manager at Hyde Road during the year and introduced Rod Hunter and Bobby Beaton from his National League Newcastle team to the BV squad. I seem to recall Thomas signed Beaton for the Aces from recently defunct Hull so he could use him with Newcastle in the lower league on a bargain 7.50 average. Out-of-sorts Peter Ravn was the early casualty to make way for the reserves shake-up.

Sixteen-year-old Andy Smith was also given a few appearances for the Aces. In fact, Hunter and Smith were called up for the second leg of October's Knock-Out Cup Final (vs. Cradley) to replace regulars Jimmy McMillan and Peter Carr. Both had endured a disappointing first leg the week before at Dudley Wood.

McMillan was still miffed about being axed, almost 40 years later, when he recalled it in a recent Speedway Star interview.

Edited April 9, 2021 by moxey63

[fatface]

10 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

McMillan was still miffed about being axed, almost 40 years later, when he recalled it in a recent Speedway Star interview.

The sign of a true competitor 

He has a point though, Andy Smith was a very raw 16 year old to be thrown into a cup final at the time. 

[moxey63]

1 hour ago, waiheke1 said:

Not sure that's correct. He may only have been used after Penhall retired, but not as a replacement for Penhall...pretty sure they used R/R to cover Bruce and Wiggy at reserve in their final match at hyde rd (not certain if that was in the BL or the KO cup)

Simon Wigg rode twice in the team with Bruce Penhall and five times (of the 15 matches) after the American retired in August. I don't think Wigg was used as Penhall's replacement and Cradley could only operate R/Re. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by moxey63

[chunky]

6 hours ago, arnieg said:

I thought I would clear this up by reading the 1982 Rulebook - how foolish was I think that would resolve the matter!!!

Read what I said earlier!

6 hours ago, arnieg said:

I so it feels like Pete Adams was operating at the fringes of what was legal.

Again, that's something that NEVER happens in British speedway...

[waiheke1]

18 hours ago, moxey63 said:

The four reserve rule was utilized at Belle Vue during 1982. Ian Thomas had been appointed team manager at Hyde Road during the year and introduced Rod Hunter and Bobby Beaton from his National League Newcastle team to the BV squad. I seem to recall Thomas signed Beaton for the Aces from recently defunct Hull so he could use him with Newcastle in the lower league on a bargain 7.50 average. Out-of-sorts Peter Ravn was the early casualty to make way for the reserves shake-up.

Sixteen-year-old Andy Smith was also given a few appearances for the Aces. In fact, Hunter and Smith were called up for the second leg of October's Knock-Out Cup Final (vs. Cradley) to replace regulars Jimmy McMillan and Peter Carr. Both had endured a disappointing first leg the week before at Dudley Wood.

McMillan was still miffed about being axed, almost 40 years later, when he recalled it in a recent Speedway Star interview.

Did the aces name an 8,9,10,11? I remember Beaton and Hunter making a very limited number of appearance, and young  Andy at the end of the season (can't imagine he would have been named at the start of the season). Pretty sure no others rode, but were any others named?

[salty]

18 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Jan Verner and Ian Gledhill also rode at reserve. 

 

18 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Not sure that's correct. He may only have been used after Penhall retired, but not as a replacement for Penhall...pretty sure they used R/R to cover Bruce and Wiggy at reserve in their final match at hyde rd (not certain if that was in the BL or the KO cup)

Aye, Gledhill was a reserve at the start of the season but struggled and was replaced by Verner half way through. The other reserve at the beginning was Reid but he got injured early on and was covered by the aforementioned Jackson, Barratt etc until he recovered. Joe Owen (the declared number 8) was used just once to replace Penhall early in the season. 

Checked what few programmes I have after Penhall's leaving and you're correct re him being covered by R/R - if I remember right Cradley had a bit of a battle to get the facility. I'm guessing Wigg was only used sparingly as they didn't want him to jigger his average for 1983?

[steve roberts]

4 hours ago, salty said:

 

Aye, Gledhill was a reserve at the start of the season but struggled and was replaced by Verner half way through. The other reserve at the beginning was Reid but he got injured early on and was covered by the aforementioned Jackson, Barratt etc until he recovered. Joe Owen (the declared number 8) was used just once to replace Penhall early in the season. 

Checked what few programmes I have after Penhall's leaving and you're correct re him being covered by R/R - if I remember right Cradley had a bit of a battle to get the facility. I'm guessing Wigg was only used sparingly as they didn't want him to jigger his average for 1983?

Yes we got Gledhill at Oxford soon after (as Cradley's sister track) and he proved to be a big disappointment after once being somewhat of a Cowley track expert...he may well have got the track record when riding for Mildenhall?

[chunky]

On 4/9/2021 at 10:03 AM, moxey63 said:

Sixteen-year-old Andy Smith was also given a few appearances for the Aces.

I know there was a lot of talk about him, and I went over to Hackney that winter for a junior match against the Aces just to see him. I wasn't sure how much senior action he'd had at that point.

[steve roberts]

3 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Yes we got Gledhill at Oxford soon after (as Cradley's sister track) and he proved to be a big disappointment after once being somewhat of a Cowley track expert...he may well have got the track record when riding for Mildenhall?

While checking Ian's record I didn't realise that he passed away in 2015?