Greatest ever improvement?

[steve roberts]

15 minutes ago, enotian said:

I think there has to be a correlation.  Wasn't it around that time, mid 80's, when there was controversy about allowing British riders to drop down into the National League?  That's drop down not double down!  So the likes of Gordon Kennett, Dave Jessup and Les Collins could all join NL teams despite having been world finalists (podiums) not much earlier. Imagine that.

Going off thread, but it's why I've always said foreign riders should never drop below their assessed average for team building.  And that assessed average shouldn't ever be as low as four as it is now. 

I recall when the "Rebels" re-located to White City John Dews was unable to drop down into the National League with Oxford because his average was deemed too high at 6.50!

[enotian]

crazy how the sport, over the years, has tied itself in knots over averages to two decimal places when they can only ever been an approximation of actual ability.  Creating any amount of dysfunctional behaviour and decision making.

[steve roberts]

15 minutes ago, enotian said:

crazy how the sport, over the years, has tied itself in knots over averages to two decimal places when they can only ever been an approximation of actual ability.  Creating any amount of dysfunctional behaviour and decision making.

I seem to recall that Dean Barker was one such example when Eastbourne first tried to introduce him to their line-up...ended up at Cradley that year I remember.

[Guest]

I’m not sure about averages but I recall the much missed Lee Richardson massively improving over the course of a season or two from a nervous reserve to a real talent in the late 1990’s.

Further back in time, a certain Ivan Mauger seemed to do pretty well on his return to the UK in 1963 after learning his trade in Australia.

[enotian]

27 minutes ago, prodons said:

I’m not sure about averages but I recall the much missed Lee Richardson massively improving over the course of a season or two from a nervous reserve to a real talent in the late 1990’s.

Further back in time, a certain Ivan Mauger seemed to do pretty well on his return to the UK in 1963 after learning his trade in Australia.

Yes, if I recall Lee was a much heralded youngster who struggled for a couple of seasons but was given time and probably went from #7 to heat leader in a season in the 2nd tier. Going on to be a GP rider.  An excellent example of the benefit of giving young riders time to develop.  I always assume if I rider isn't doing a Peter Collins, Michael Lee or Kenny Carter in their first season then they won't make the International stage but it's just not the case.

Of course Mauger himself.  Was only ever top man around Newcastle but by all accounts was out of his depth as a youngster at Wimbledon.  Not sure of the league configurations back then though.

[Tsunami]

Jordan Palin started with the BV Cubs in 2019 at number 7, and was no 1 after the first green sheets were published. I think his first meeting was a 15 point Max.

[Vince]

4 hours ago, E I Addio said:

Its difficult to tell how far a rider can go. Rob was a useful reserve at Lakeside butfor some reason suffered a loss of form / confidence so gave speedway a miss for a while, and concentrated on continental grass tracks. Jon Cook then got him back to Lakeside as a British 3-pointer which seemed to be a steal because his average was down due to previous loss of form. However the comeback never really worked, he never really got back in the groove and retired for good. I think he could have dropped down to the lower league and done ok but last time I spoke to him he was doing happy enough doing continental grass tracks and apparently making it pay so had no real desire to return to speedway.

The thing is Rob was never a full time speedway rider and always had another job laying gas pipes or something and its always hard to combine two jobs and still do well.  I suppose on grass tracks he can do his day job then focus on his racing at weekends.

If he was full time speedway I guess he could have been a useful top league second string or lower league heatleader but I wouldn't have thought international class, but who knows.

Think Rob was one of the lads who came into Speedway with plenty of Grass track experience so in the lower leagues looked to be very talented immediately then as he moved up the levels it became harder to impress. Very decent rider but not that extra little bit that makes them into international stars in my opinion.

Right little chav at 16 but now matured and been riding Flat track for a couple of years and a good lad to have around, wouldn't be surprised to see him in the top 3 of the British Championships over the next couple of years. Think he would get dispensation to ride a 600 if he returned to Speedway as he is carrying a fair bit of extra padding around these days 

[chunky]

3 hours ago, steve roberts said:

I recall when the "Rebels" re-located to White City John Dews was unable to drop down into the National League with Oxford because his average was deemed too high at 6.50!

Andy Grahame was the same.  He was forced out of the BL because they lowered the points limit, and not a single team could fit him in, yet his average was too high for him to drop down!

[Racin Jason 72]

4 hours ago, enotian said:

if I recall staying at reserve all season despite averaging seven in that amazing Eagles team.  Probably only getting three rides per meeting in the old thirteen heat format.  The start of a great conveyor belt.  Dugard, Standing, Barker, Norris. I think Dean went to Ipswich but can't recall if he ever made an impact in the top flight. I recall Darren Standing going straight through the first bend at Brough just as he was starting to progress with Stoke.

Dean standing was a excellent heat leader for Ipswich in the national league in 89 and 90 and I think he was reluctant to go into the top league when Ipswich went upon 91.  Ended up going to Stoke and had a torrid time before signing for Swindon and I think he retired. 
extremely stylish rider. Now living in Australia 

[Trees]

Michael Lee maybe, who knows his stats? Ended up on 9.22 in 76 and 10.64 in 77 so Wikipedia tells me ....

[iris123]

21 minutes ago, Trees said:

Michael Lee maybe, who knows his stats? Ended up on 9.22 in 76 and 10.64 in 77 so Wikipedia tells me ....

No idea what Ronnie Moore came in as or how he ended his first season, stats wise, but he must be one, as he had only done a season in NZ before coming over, I think

Think one of the 1960s Swedes was also an overnight sensation....maybe Knutson ?

And of course Scotland's Tommy Miller got over 9 pt average in his very first season in the 2nd division 

And for improvement, I guess Ivan Mauger had an amazing improvement from his early years at Wimbledon and returning to become arguably the greatest ever rider

Edited March 28, 2021 by iris123

[norbold]

John Louis averaged 8.74 in his debut year, then up to 11.31 in his second.

[steve roberts]

20 minutes ago, norbold said:

John Louis averaged 8.74 in his debut year, then up to 11.31 in his second.

...and then achieved an average of 9 plus in his debut year in Division One and qualified for that year's World Final.

[Shrub]

Some really good shouts on here and I'd just like to add Tony Davey. Only started riding late 1970, had a handful of matches at the tail end of the season to average 3.38. On to 1971, he achieved in his first six matches scores of 15-5 (away), 15-5 (a) + track record, 12-4 (h) + T/R, paid 14-5(a), 15-5 (h) 9-4 (h) plus a fall. Ended the season on 9.93, with 9 full and three paid max, finishing 7th in the overall averages.

What could have been but for the terrible hand injury the following year....

[enotian]

6 hours ago, Tsunami said:

Jordan Palin started with the BV Cubs in 2019 at number 7, and was no 1 after the first green sheets were published. I think his first meeting was a 15 point Max.

excluding assessed starting averages Tsumani!! Arguably if he scored a 15 max on debut he's been on the decline ever since 

3 hours ago, Trees said:

Michael Lee maybe, who knows his stats? Ended up on 9.22 in 76 and 10.64 in 77 so Wikipedia tells me ....

wasn't he a nine pointer from the off?  Obviously started on an assessed two or whatever it was at the time but was never anything less than a nine pointer straightaway.  I was more interested in riders who had difficult/average starts to their career but suddenly improved during the course of a season.  Charles Wright is a more recent example.  Having spent a fair few seasons as a four ish pointer was it Somerset he went to and added three points to his average?

[proud panther]

Robert Lambert ?

[Leicester Hunter]

4 hours ago, Shrub said:

Some really good shouts on here and I'd just like to add Tony Davey. Only started riding late 1970, had a handful of matches at the tail end of the season to average 3.38. On to 1971, he achieved in his first six matches scores of 15-5 (away), 15-5 (a) + track record, 12-4 (h) + T/R, paid 14-5(a), 15-5 (h) 9-4 (h) plus a fall. Ended the season on 9.93, with 9 full and three paid max, finishing 7th in the overall averages.

What could have been but for the terrible hand injury the following year....

Indeed. In John Berry's first book he stated how he rated Tony Davey higher than Peter Collins. The rules in 1971 apparently precluded Division 2 riders from partaking in Division 1 unless they had a tie-up with a Division 1 club. Of course, PC was at Belle Vue, John Louis at Newport, Malcolm Shakespeare at Leicester... the list was probably a little longer than that. 

When it came to the first match, JB said that Davey was a complete bundle of nerves never having ridden at that level before. Things didn't improve as both Olle Nygren and Alan Sage were excluded from the first heat for tape breaking. Then came Heat 2 and the awful crash...  A classic case of 'What might have been'.  

Edited March 28, 2021 by Leicester Hunter

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

6 hours ago, norbold said:

John Louis averaged 8.74 in his debut year, then up to 11.31 in his second.

Thats a great point

Gap closure to the perfect 12 is much harder than  big jump from a 2 or 3 starting figure 

[Shrub]

1 hour ago, Leicester Hunter said:

Indeed. In John Berry's first book he stated how he rated Tony Davey higher than Peter Collins. The rules in 1971 apparently precluded Division 2 riders from partaking in Division 1 unless they had a tie-up with a Division 1 club. Of course, PC was at Belle Vue, John Louis at Newport, Malcolm Shakespeare at Leicester... the list was probably a little longer than that. 

When it came to the first match, JB said that Davey was a complete bundle of nerves never having ridden at that level before. Things didn't improve as both Olle Nygren and Alan Sage were excluded from the first heat for tape breaking. Then came Heat 2 and the awful crash...  A classic case of 'What might have been'.  

The rule was reputedly brought in to stop Louis being used by all and sundry as a guest in Div 1, after he was guesting often for Newport in 1970. 

Shrimp's crash was actually in heat 4, his third ride of the afternoon, it seemed a routine first bend spill. It's scary to think I saw that 49 years ago.....

[Fromafar]

TheLate great Wayne Brown at Berwick went from reserve 3.94 to 9.00 the next season and improved it again the next season.He actually improved overnight in the 2nd half of “78 after beating the Owen brothers at Berwick one week.Great guy sadly missed.