1985 World Final

[chunky]

2 minutes ago, norbold said:

Music is an interesting one. I was listening to one of my young teenage favourite songs yesterday - Runaway by Del Shannon. The song came out 60 years ago this year. 60 years before that was 1901!!!

I work at a local bar a couple of times a week, and whenever things like Bohemian Rhapsody or Jean Genie come on the jukebox, I'm one of the only people in the bar that remembers it when it first came out!

[fatface]

7 hours ago, steve roberts said:

They were riding a perfect line for a couple of laps and then Lance King decided to ride a tighter line allowing Erik a clear run where the dirt was. Again, it was something that Sam Ermolenko touched upon in his book.

Interesting. Not a theory I've heard before. I'd question whether it has much credibility. If King wanted to stay out of Erik's way, then he wouldn't have passed him on the first bend. I can't buy into the idea that it was fixed. It's a some fix if the script was for Moran to outgate Gundersen, King to pass him on the turn, team ride him out with Moran on the inside and King on the outside, then let him get past them both. I think that's a stretch. 

For me, there was a minor error on King's part and Gundersen took advantage with a brilliant bit of opportunism. I think it's one of THE great world final rides. Only Gundersen, Nielsen, Ermolenko and Niemi seemed to have the track properly weighed up that afternoon. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by falcace

[fatface]

17 minutes ago, chunky said:

I work at a local bar a couple of times a week, and whenever things like Bohemian Rhapsody or Jean Genie come on the jukebox, I'm one of the only people in the bar that remembers it when it first came out!

I was working behind a hotel bar in Edinburgh as a student in the 1990s and the band Mud came in after a gig. The lead singer (Les?) was chatting away and I told him that Tiger Feet was number 1 when I was born. I thought it was a nice thing to say, but he physically deflated! I suppose in his eyes, he was still a hip rock star.   

[chunky]

17 minutes ago, falcace said:

I was working behind a hotel bar in Edinburgh as a student in the 1990s and the band Mud came in after a gig. The lead singer (Les?) was chatting away and I told him that Tiger Feet was number 1 when I was born. I thought it was a nice thing to say, but he physically deflated! I suppose in his eyes, he was still a hip rock star.   

I think that when I see things like talent shows on the box, and even in sports: "You were my hero when I was growing up!" and, "As a kid, I always wanted to be like you!"

It's that people think that way, but boy, can they sting - and yes, I've had that experience too! American dart player Danny Baggish (who is playing in the PDC now) came up to me a few years ago, and said, "You probably don't remember me, but I was one of those kids you used to give free dart flights to!" 

[steve roberts]

3 hours ago, falcace said:

Interesting. Not a theory I've heard before. I'd question whether it has much credibility. If King wanted to stay out of Erik's way, then he wouldn't have passed him on the first bend. I can't buy into the idea that it was fixed. It's a some fix if the script was for Moran to outgate Gundersen, King to pass him on the turn, team ride him out with Moran on the inside and King on the outside, then let him get past them both. I think that's a stretch. 

For me, there was a minor error on King's part and Gundersen took advantage with a brilliant bit of opportunism. I think it's one of THE great world final rides. Only Gundersen, Nielsen, Ermolenko and Niemi seemed to have the track properly weighed up that afternoon. 

To quote from Ermolenko's book

"...We were watching the race and Shawn Moran and Lance King were beating Erik Gundersen, then before you knew it, Erik pulled off a big swoop round the outside of them and took the lead and won the race. It was felt that King didn't try that hard  to prevent him from doing this as they used to be team-mates at  Cradley Heath"

An interesting observation all the same however it's a question I would have put to King given the opportunity even if only to dispel Ermolenko's comment in his book.

Edited April 11, 2021 by steve roberts

[cityrebel]

15 hours ago, chunky said:

You wanna talk about "rushing"? Couldn't be worse than the night we spent at Watford Gap coming back from Belle Vue. By the time we got home, I had time to take a shower, and get back to the stadium for the coach to Eastbourne for the Inter-League 4TT!

Tell me about it. It was you that nicked the road sign, wasn't it!

[Grachan]

My own memory of Gundersen's pass was that Hans Neilsen had done a similar move in a previous race and Erik had tried the same move and it worked perfectly, just as it had for Hans. 

 

[Grachan]

Just had a look here: 1985 - Speedway Individual World Final - Bradford (Great Britain) - Erik Gundersen (Denmark) - YouTube

Hans Neilsen uses a similar line in heat 10 to pass Jan Andersson (36:30). I remember at the time I very much wanted Neilsen to win and when Erik passed King and Moran I got the hump because he was just copying Hans!

The Gundersen race is at 1:03:00. First of all, King passes Gundersen early in the race. Why would he do that if he was chucking the race for Erik to win? It looks to me like King moves in because he is trying to pass Moran and wants to clamp him down, which gives Erik a clear run round the outside.

Any idea that King threw the race looks like nonsense to me. I reckon Sam just got the hump because it gave him less chance of winning.

[steve roberts]

48 minutes ago, Grachan said:

Just had a look here: 1985 - Speedway Individual World Final - Bradford (Great Britain) - Erik Gundersen (Denmark) - YouTube

Hans Neilsen uses a similar line in heat 10 to pass Jan Andersson (36:30). I remember at the time I very much wanted Neilsen to win and when Erik passed King and Moran I got the hump because he was just copying Hans!

The Gundersen race is at 1:03:00. First of all, King passes Gundersen early in the race. Why would he do that if he was chucking the race for Erik to win? It looks to me like King moves in because he is trying to pass Moran and wants to clamp him down, which gives Erik a clear run round the outside.

Any idea that King threw the race looks like nonsense to me. I reckon Sam just got the hump because it gave him less chance of winning.

If I was King I would feel aggrieved that Ermolenko went to print and I would have made a point of refuting the claim if there was nothing untoward however in an interview in "Backtrack" some years ago when it was put to him was he team-riding with Moran to try to aid Ermolenko he replied "No, I wasn't trying to do that. It was an individual meeting, so I was out there racing as an individual. It may have been different in Shawn's case, I don't know, but I was riding for myself"

Does seem odd that Ermolenko felt the need to make the comment though?

Edited April 12, 2021 by steve roberts

[fatface]

11 hours ago, steve roberts said:

To quote from Ermolenko's book

"...We were watching the race and Shawn Moran and Lance King were beating Erik Gundersen, then before you knew it, Erik pulled off a big swoop round the outside of them and took the lead and won the race. It was felt that King didn't try that hard  to prevent him from doing this as they used to be team-mates at  Cradley Heath"

An interesting observation all the same however it's a question I would have put to King given the opportunity even if only to dispel Ermolenko's comment in his book.

Thanks Steve.

Hasn't changed my mind though. I think Ermolenko is hinting at something that's without merit there. As an add on, King was so put out on being dropped by Cradley after 1984 in favour of Erik (due to averages) that he missed the UK altogether...and never went back to Dudley Wood. I don't think he was out for doing Erik or Cradley any favours in 85.   

[Bradford Ace]

Very interesting that this has been brought up as never heard anyone say it in public before but never been able to get it out of my head that it was fixed. This was because at the time me & my Mum stood at Halifax with a guy quite well connected in Speedway and at the evening meeting against Belle Vue he told us that he was in the pits at Odsal and that Gundo had paid off Moran & King for that race.

I was only 12 at the time but it’s just one of those things that I remember like it was yesterday and that has always stuck in my mind.

Absolutely no idea if it’s true or not but every time I see the race or see someone praising Gundo, I always think back to what I was told!!!!! Very interesting 

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Bradford Ace

[chunky]

4 hours ago, cityrebel said:

Tell me about it. It was you that nicked the road sign, wasn't it!

It was Hickmott!

You realise that was 41 years ago? That was when Johnsy scored 16+1 at Hyde Rd, and beat PC three times...

Edited April 12, 2021 by chunky

[fatface]

16 minutes ago, Bradford Ace said:

Very interesting that this has been brought up as never heard anyone say it in public before but never been able to get it out of my head that it was fixed. This was because at the time me & my Mum stood at Halifax with a guy quite well connected in Speedway and at the evening meeting against Belle Vue he told us that he was in the pits at Odsal and that Gundo had paid off Moran & King for that race.

I was only 12 at the time but it’s just one of those things that I remember like it was yesterday and that has always stuck in my mind.

Absolutely no idea if it’s true or not but every time I see the race or see someone praising Gundo, I always think back to what I was told!!!!! Very interesting 

 

Again, I just can't buy that. Regardless of whether some bloke on a terracing said it or not.

Too much happened in the race and too many risks were taken for it to be anything but legit. Plus Gundersen's fist pumping celebration at the race conclusion is not that of a man who knew the race was in his pocket already.

[norbold]

3 hours ago, Grachan said:

Just had a look here: 1985 - Speedway Individual World Final - Bradford (Great Britain) - Erik Gundersen (Denmark) - YouTube

Hans Neilsen uses a similar line in heat 10 to pass Jan Andersson (36:30). I remember at the time I very much wanted Neilsen to win and when Erik passed King and Moran I got the hump because he was just copying Hans!

The Gundersen race is at 1:03:00. First of all, King passes Gundersen early in the race. Why would he do that if he was chucking the race for Erik to win? It looks to me like King moves in because he is trying to pass Moran and wants to clamp him down, which gives Erik a clear run round the outside.

Any idea that King threw the race looks like nonsense to me. I reckon Sam just got the hump because it gave him less chance of winning.

Thanks for the link, Grachan. It looks perfectly ok to me. It just looks like a great move by Gundersen  - and I think we should remember that Gundersen always figures in discussions about the greatest riders of all time and this sort of move is why.

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, Bradford Ace said:

Very interesting that this has been brought up as never heard anyone say it in public before but never been able to get it out of my head that it was fixed. This was because at the time me & my Mum stood at Halifax with a guy quite well connected in Speedway and at the evening meeting against Belle Vue he told us that he was in the pits at Odsal and that Gundo had paid off Moran & King for that race.

I was only 12 at the time but it’s just one of those things that I remember like it was yesterday and that has always stuck in my mind.

Absolutely no idea if it’s true or not but every time I see the race or see someone praising Gundo, I always think back to what I was told!!!!! Very interesting 

 

I'm not suggesting for one minute that this is the case here but I remember the speedway journalist John Chaplin once saying if you don't want your illusions spoilt keep your side of the fence. My uncle who was track photographer at Cowley during the seventies saw money change hands during a British Semi-Final at Leicester in 1974 (confirmed by John Berry incidently) in the pits...it's naive to think that it didn't happen in speedway circles.

[fatface]

1 minute ago, steve roberts said:

I'm not suggesting for one minute that this is the case here but I remember the speedway journalist John Chaplin once saying if you don't want your illusions spoilt keep your side of the fence. My uncle who was track photographer at Cowley during the seventies saw money change hands during a British Semi-Final at Leicester in 1974 (confirmed by John Berry incidently) in the pits...it's naive to think that it didn't happen in speedway circles.

Yes of course. I've no doubt it went on a aplenty...

Aside from the obvious Penhall episode with his fellow yanks at the 1982 Overseas, there were plenty of questionable episodes. In the previous year's Overseas Final, the high flying Dave Jessup and Larry Ross flunked their last race beaten by the hitherto struggling team-mates Mike Lee and Ivan Mauger who finish 1st and 2nd to scrape through. It happened and when it did, it was pretty obvious.

[steve roberts]

50 minutes ago, falcace said:

Yes of course. I've no doubt it went on a aplenty...

Aside from the obvious Penhall episode with his fellow yanks at the 1982 Overseas, there were plenty of questionable episodes. In the previous year's Overseas Final, the high flying Dave Jessup and Larry Ross flunked their last race beaten by the hitherto struggling team-mates Mike Lee and Ivan Mauger who finish 1st and 2nd to scrape through. It happened and when it did, it was pretty obvious.

I recall the occasion that both Nielsen and Gundersen were desperate not to cross the line first in one World Championship qualifier as it would've given them a less blessed draw in the next round. Ivan was another who blew one race on purpose to give him a better starting option when the numbers were pre-determined! Why it was decided that the starting positions were already known depending on your finishing order in the previous round beats me!

[HenryW]

1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

I recall the occasion that both Nielsen and Gundersen were desperate not to cross the line first in one World Championship qualifier as it would've given them a less blessed draw in the next round. 

1988 Intercontinental Final in Vetlanda.

Gundersen let Ivarsson by in his last race to set up a run off for 2nd with Nielsen and Jonsson.

Winning the run off got you race number 9 in the final. Finishing second got number 1.

Coming off the last bend Nielsen slowed dramatically, Gundersen reacted and also slowed so that Nielsen just crossed the line first.

I thought I had seen this race on YouTube before but can't find it now...Heat 17 where Gundersen sets up the run off is there, but I can't find the run off 

[cityrebel]

4 hours ago, chunky said:

It was Hickmott!

You realise that was 41 years ago? That was when Johnsy scored 16+1 at Hyde Rd, and beat PC three times...

It scares me to think about it!

[keepturningleft]

In interviews and documentaries, Gundersen comes across as being a thoroughly intelligent, decent and likeable person. 

The idea that he could have been involved in race fixing is too ridiculous for words.