Points Limit ?

[ProudtobeaBrummie]

Having just had a catch up on the National league goings on and signings the teams look so unbalanced its not going to make much of a sceptical . Basically every team has 2 or some 3 number ones then the rest of the team is made up of reserve quality riders . Heats 13 and 15 look like they could be tasty most meetings . But come on nearly getting lapped by Max Clegg or Nathan Greaves isn't going to help these kids . 

Clearly the points limit is far too low to enable teams to swap a couple of 3 pointers with 4.5-6.5 averaged riders who can fill the void . Far too many races/heats will just be processional and very strung out . It would/will surely  be hard for stand alone clubs to charge for such entertainment other than the bare minimum .

This is only my opinion guys if you think i am wrong fair enough tell me why in your opinion i am . Maybe i can be convinced to change my mind . 

Most important thing i suppose is speedway is returning so that i suppose is all that counts .

[mikebv]

24 minutes ago, ProudtobeaBrummie said:

Having just had a catch up on the National league goings on and signings the teams look so unbalanced its not going to make much of a sceptical . Basically every team has 2 or some 3 number ones then the rest of the team is made up of reserve quality riders . Heats 13 and 15 look like they could be tasty most meetings . But come on nearly getting lapped by Max Clegg or Nathan Greaves isn't going to help these kids . 

Clearly the points limit is far too low to enable teams to swap a couple of 3 pointers with 4.5-6.5 averaged riders who can fill the void . Far too many races/heats will just be processional and very strung out . It would/will surely  be hard for stand alone clubs to charge for such entertainment other than the bare minimum .

This is only my opinion guys if you think i am wrong fair enough tell me why in your opinion i am . Maybe i can be convinced to change my mind . 

Most important thing i suppose is speedway is returning so that i suppose is all that counts .

li think its an accurate description, but the reason for the team strengths is, for me, so more teams can afford to run a team, and at the same time 'reset' what the NDL actually is...

Hence the 'standalone' teams are almost an endangered species given their operating model is/was almost at a tangent to what the BSPL wants the NDL to be..

 

[Ringitsneck]

This has been discussed to death in other threads, move on.

[East End Fan]

2 hours ago, mikebv said:

li think its an accurate description, but the reason for the team strengths is, for me, so more teams can afford to run a team, and at the same time 'reset' what the NDL actually is...

Hence the 'standalone' teams are almost an endangered species given their operating model is/was almost at a tangent to what the BSPL wants the NDL to be..

 

Surely the costa for a newcomer in machinery, travel, loss of income from normal employment, is exactly the same as it is for more experienced riders. So why do we

assume that these riders are cheaper to employ ?  To be realistic, it could be true of week-end tracks as the riders can still hold down a normal job.  But all of them are

expected to travel to midweek tracks all over the country.  I have no idea how these costs are met.  Do riders fund travel out of their own pocket ? I doubt it.  I am very doubtful

that new riders accept very low pay once they have been in a team for more than a few weeks.  I have never had to maintain a Speedway bike, but it cannot be cheap. There

is always talk among fans of engine tuning bills of over £1000.  If that is true, no rider unless with rich parents could meet such bills. Add the tyre costs too.

[brianbuck]

It's just the old, old situation - put a 10 point man and a 2 point man out in a race against two 6 point men and the result will be a 3-3. Do this all evening and you will certainly get a close result - but you will never get close racing. And as far as the fans are concerned, it's close racing that really matters for speedway isn't a results-based sport. If the racing isn't competitive then the spectators will stop coming.

The 10 pointer and 2 pointer against two 6 pointers looks set to become more prevalent in the coming season, which isn't good news.

[stevehone]

21 hours ago, East End Fan said:

Surely the costa for a newcomer in machinery, travel, loss of income from normal employment, is exactly the same as it is for more experienced riders. So why do we

assume that these riders are cheaper to employ ?  To be realistic, it could be true of week-end tracks as the riders can still hold down a normal job.  But all of them are

expected to travel to midweek tracks all over the country.  I have no idea how these costs are met.  Do riders fund travel out of their own pocket ? I doubt it.  I am very doubtful

that new riders accept very low pay once they have been in a team for more than a few weeks.  I have never had to maintain a Speedway bike, but it cannot be cheap. There

is always talk among fans of engine tuning bills of over £1000.  If that is true, no rider unless with rich parents could meet such bills. Add the tyre costs too.

surely this is the sort of league that people would benefit having a GTR?

[Sings4Speedway]

14 hours ago, brianbuck said:

It's just the old, old situation - put a 10 point man and a 2 point man out in a race against two 6 point men and the result will be a 3-3. Do this all evening and you will certainly get a close result - but you will never get close racing. And as far as the fans are concerned, it's close racing that really matters for speedway isn't a results-based sport. If the racing isn't competitive then the spectators will stop coming.

The 10 pointer and 2 pointer against two 6 pointers looks set to become more prevalent in the coming season, which isn't good news.

Been banging that drum for years (as its not only NL with the problem). You could track two teams of 3 pointers (providing they were of a decent standard) and get a full evening of entertaining racing. The current setup will allow for 3-4 good races at best and ultimately more people watching higher tier racing (which is what the objective of the BSPL is).

14 hours ago, stevehone said:

surely this is the sort of league that people would benefit having a GTR?

Some people have used them to a level of success and i suspect will have reaped the financial benefits (even reduced servicing intervals is going to take a few of seasons to achieve break even point.) But they are certainly not for all as they require a differing style setup / ride. The option is there to any rider but why would anybody want to get rid of decent engines they already own to use something that has a limited production life? 

[Halifaxtiger]

The way I see it, if the league is all about development and not competition it doesn't matter if the points limit is 35 or 39.

If that is the case, results don't matter -  just experience and track time.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Halifaxtiger

[Sings4Speedway]

8 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

The way I see it, if the league is all about development and not competition it doesn't matter if the points limit is 35 or 39.

If that is the case, results don't matter -  just experience and track time.

Whilst i do agree with you to a point its very hard to sell a product to the paying public with that ethos. "Come and pay £15 to watch some lads of various abilities have a bit of track time", "some of these riders might progress to a higher level, see them here first". We all know that is part of the magic of the NL but unless there is a level of competition, a strive for improvement and a pressure felt when under achieving it will become like a school sports day where everyone gets a medal for trying. 

[Halifaxtiger]

1 minute ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Whilst i do agree with you to a point its very hard to sell a product to the paying public with that ethos. "Come and pay £15 to watch some lads of various abilities have a bit of track time", "some of these riders might progress to a higher level, see them here first". We all know that is part of the magic of the NL but unless there is a level of competition, a strive for improvement and a pressure felt when under achieving it will become like a school sports day where everyone gets a medal for trying. 

I also agree up to a point . You certainly wouldn't use your 'come and pay £15...' as a means of promoting the meetings 

If the limit is 39, you don't have to build to that but instead include riders who you believe deserve a place regardless of their average (although I  might suggest (ironically as it happens)that there would be a lower points limit). 

That means that results could be uneven (some may have a noticeable advantage in terms of team strength) and thus that the competition (ie the NDL) would not be as balanced as if all built to the same limit.

If its about development, that doesn't matter. It would not, however, prevent young riders busting a gut to beat other young riders and thus they would have the on track competition that they need, there would be a sense of achievement after winning races and, hopefully, they would improve. 

[Ringitsneck]

15 hours ago, stevehone said:

surely this is the sort of league that people would benefit having a GTR?

and what happened to them ?...another BSPA cock up.

[Sings4Speedway]

30 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

I also agree up to a point . You certainly wouldn't use your 'come and pay £15...' as a means of promoting the meetings 

If the limit is 39, you don't have to build to that but instead include riders who you believe deserve a place regardless of their average (although I  might suggest (ironically as it happens)that there would be a lower points limit). 

That means that results could be uneven (some may have a noticeable advantage in terms of team strength) and thus that the competition (ie the NDL) would not be as balanced as if all built to the same limit.

If its about development, that doesn't matter. It would not, however, prevent young riders busting a gut to beat other young riders and thus they would have the on track competition that they need, there would be a sense of achievement after winning races and, hopefully, they would improve. 

Spot on in fact i believe Kent built an initial team that was just over 35 points and still looked one of the strongest in the league as they had signed riders with potential to move on but by cutting it to fit the lowered limit now looks an average side with one or two stand out riders.  

[Heedthebaw]

8 hours ago, Ringitsneck said:

and what happened to them ?...another BSPA cock up.

Probably still got them, they’ll be cheap now 

[Ringitsneck]

28 minutes ago, Heedthebaw said:

Probably still got them, they’ll be cheap now 

You obviously didn’t keep up with that piece of controversy. They paid up front for a large delivery of engines and received just a few at around £18,000 per engine delivered. Real good bit of business !

[Heedthebaw]

1 minute ago, Ringitsneck said:

You obviously didn’t keep up with that piece of controversy. They paid up front for a large delivery of engines and received just a few at around £18,000 per engine delivered. Real good bit of business !

18k per engine ?????  

[mac101]

Think there is a few GTR ,s kicking about seen a couple for sale but don’t seem  to be moving 

[phillwhitewasmad]

We have one lovely smooth engine delivers the power to the back wheel really well. It's an excellent stepping stone from the 250 as the power is more predictable than the gm. 
strange how so many were eager to criticise this opportunity when so many think that the iow 2valve challenge was the way forward 

[Ringitsneck]

1 hour ago, Heedthebaw said:

18k per engine ?????  

Roughly...divide £300 grand by 16 engines...he saw them coming and took them to the cleaners. Apparently they are still trying to get their money back 4 years later , not a hope in....

[Ringitsneck]

30 minutes ago, mac101 said:

Think there is a few GTR ,s kicking about seen a couple for sale but don’t seem  to be moving 

Seen one for sale in the last twelve months, for just over 3 grand. I know as a person I know was after one for his collection.

[Ringitsneck]

25 minutes ago, phillwhitewasmad said:

We have one lovely smooth engine delivers the power to the back wheel really well. It's an excellent stepping stone from the 250 as the power is more predictable than the gm. 
strange how so many were eager to criticise this opportunity when so many think that the iow 2valve challenge was the way forward 

Yes, I understand the few that made it to the UK were well received by junior riders but they were never taken on for long by a ‘ senior ‘ rider in competitive racing.