Ringitsneck Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 56 minutes ago, phillwhitewasmad said: as i read it there are no consequences you either accept a place on the scheme with the terms and conditions applied which means as i understand it protected places for british youth riders. or you dont accept it and have to take your chances with every other rider . as i understand it there are are no sanctions you can still ride just not in the protected scheme. i think it can work going forward just needs time to settle 2022 will be the telling year as its first full season under the regs as stated. bonus for is we wont have to go to Edinburgh Then you need to read it again. Any rider refusing a position will be taken off the scheme, therefore being ineligible for a team place in a reserve position , basically your barred ! . A brand new youth rider is highly unlikely be offered a team place in a 1 to 5 . Lets hope they see the error of there ways and change things when a few of the less desperate , or less wealthy kids, say no I’m not going to do a 500 mile round trip to ride at a club I don’t want to be at and I’ll sit out the year or go moto crossing instead. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sings4Speedway Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 Is it just me or is it all just toooo complicated and we already have enough complications with averages but we do at least partly understand them so why not just set it as newcomers to the CL 2.00 - rider who has completed 30 NL meetings or fewer 2.50 - rider under 23 3.00 - newcomer who has completed 30+ NL meetings or over 23. from then on they just have the average the achieve with above minimums applied. For PL reserves need to achieve the required minimum standard via conversion rate as they do now job done. Im all for promoting British and making them more attractive signings makes sense but not if it makes it all too easy. The reason more Aussies succeed than Brits is because they have no choice, its make it or fly home. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Najjer said: Good post - one alarming point though that maybe I have missed but I had just assumed that the rising star would stay in the no.7 berth all season no matter what? Otherwise I’m not really sure how the graded ‘rising star’ is any help to the progression of British riders. How many RS will make a good start to the season, see their average rise and then shafted to sign someone else once they have a couple of bad meetings? Maybe they should rebrand the RS name and call it BS instead. Obviously standing for British Star and not anything else I'm only guessing to be fair but I cant see it working any other way or you could end up with a super strong reserve a No 7 and just think what an advantage that could be; especially at home... and was this not the failing with the last "Support Young British Riders" plan that was tried in the old Elite/Premier League... EDIT: Just think of Leon Flint at Berwick a Rising Star if there ever was one and a brilliant prospect: then keep him at No 7 all season... he would get 7 rides every week at home and end up with an average around the 8 mark? then what happens to him next season, 4* because I would suggest he would find it difficult going from No 7 to No 5 or 1 the following season... you want these young kids to progress and learn the trade and even Robert Lambert had a couple of years working through the ranks to get where he is today... Might happen to one in a thousand young kids where they go stratospheric but you need to restrict them slightly but keep setting goals and challenges... 29 minutes ago, enotian said: But I think there has to be an element of making it up as they go along doesn't there? 2022 will all depend on relative progress in 2021. If it's a huge success and enough youngsters have progressed beyond the gradings then the plans might (need to) change. The idea is that there is a mechanism to provide a pathway for young British riders into the professional leagues over a sustained period. That has to be preferential to team places going to established riders on low averages. Whether or not this is the best way to do it doesn't matter as long as it works. What would be interesting how long does a rider get to progress? Some on the list already have considerable experience. Should there be an element of making it up? Not really; not for me anyway; there should be some methodology in the process; some plan; then promote the trial and yes see where it goes for the start of 2022... but it has to be built on solid foundations first; but this is getting blown out of the water before it starts; albeit on limited information mind... Is it preferential? What about the likes of Hurry; Roynon; Wright; Sarjeant; Lamber (S) or Lawson (W) who are all British and whatever their averages are you need riders available with averages right across the spectrum otherwise the big spenders would have a team full of 9 and 10 point average riders and build to 70 points; so these lower averaged riders are required when you build to a capped number... I am not saying they have any more rights to ride than say Daniel Gappmaier; Fernando Garcia; Paco Castagna; Sam Jensen or Kasper Andersen whose averages are all very similar; but the former are British... Just saying like... Regards THJ Edited February 1, 2021 by TotallyHonestJohn Edited for accuracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruffdiamond Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) Just picking up on S4S last point about flying,,, am pretty sure that cheap flights in and out of Britain might not be around in the future. So flitting in and out for overseas riders may become a thing of the past, giving British youngsters more opportunities to fill vacated places from ageing British/British based riders? But other than that, a can't make head nor tail of this rising stars thing. Edited February 1, 2021 by ruffdiamond 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Ringitsneck said: Then you need to read it again. Any rider refusing a position will be taken off the scheme, therefore being ineligible for a team place in a reserve position , basically your barred ! . A brand new youth rider is highly unlikely be offered a team place in a 1 to 5 yes i know that and understand it but they are offering to protect the position for scheme members its up to the rider as to whether they accept it. why should a rider who accepts all the terms and conditions of the scheme which are numerous be overlooked just because another rider dosent want to join it because his draft track isnt near to home. for me its a positive step granted their could be some riders who end up having to travel further than they wanted but its the tough harsh reality your not barred from riding just taking up rising star positions a rider can still ply their trade in national league to help them get to a level where they can get a 1 to 5 place. it a harder route but its a personal decision . Edited February 1, 2021 by phillwhitewasmad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted February 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: I'm only guessing to be fair but I cant see it working any other way or you could end up with a super strong reserve a No 7 and just think what an advantage that could be; especially at home... and was this not the failing with the last "Support Young British Riders" plan that was tried in the old Elite/Premier League... Should there be an element of making it up? Not really; not for me anyway; there should be some methodology in the process; some plan; then promote the trial and yes see where it goes for the start of 2022... but it has to be built on solid foundations first; but this is getting blown out of the water before it starts; albeit on limited information mind... Is it preferential? What about the likes of Hurry; Roynon; Wright; Sarjeant; Lamber (S) or Lawson (W) who are all British and whatever their averages are you need riders available with averages right across the spectrum otherwise the big spenders would have a team full of 9 and 10 point average riders and build to 70 points; so these lower averaged riders are required when you build to a capped number... I am not saying they have any more rights to ride than say Daniel Gappmaier; Fernando Garcia; Paco Castagna; Sam Jensen or Kasper Andersen whose averages are all very similar; but the former are British... Just saying like... Regards THJ Yes there should be a criteria but equally if that criteria leads to a dysfunctional position in 2022 or beyond then you'd amend it wouldn't you. Like you say if the pipeline dries up within those years you might revert to one per team. Or if it's a huge success and there's more supply then you might increase to 3 graded team places for Rising Stars. Never paint yourself into a corner. Surely giving an opportunity to a kid who might go on to be successful internationally and even raise the profile of the sport in this country is preferable to giving another shot to a 3 point 30 year old who is never going to develop? It's product R&D and I don't see giving a team place to a youngster ahead of a low average old timer as reducing the quality, although I'll reserve judgement on that until I've seen Alcock in action [not a euphemism] Cynically you might also consider supply and demand. If there's a greater supply of riders then those riders can't demand as much. Either way the decision is obvious. Edited February 1, 2021 by enotian 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 Think Leon Flint is a good example of where it could go wrong, another being Drew Kemp.Big average do they just move to 4star in 2022. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 25 minutes ago, enotian said: Yes there should be a criteria but equally if that criteria leads to a dysfunctional position in 2022 or beyond then you'd amend it wouldn't you. Like you say if the pipeline dries up within those years you might revert to one per team. Or if it's a huge success and there's more supply then you might increase to 3 graded team places for Rising Stars. Never paint yourself into a corner. Surely giving an opportunity to a kid who might go on to be successful internationally and even raise the profile of the sport in this country is preferable to giving another shot to a 3 point 30 year old who is never going to develop? It's product R&D and I don't see giving a team place to a youngster ahead of a low average old timer as reducing the quality, although I'll reserve judgement on that until I've seen Alcock in action [not a euphemism] Cynically you might also consider supply and demand. If there's a greater supply of riders then those riders can't demand as much. Either way the decision is obvious. Alcock... giggidy giggidy... Yep brilliant.... and we bring on all these young kids and they become successful internationally and what's the first thig they will do... no prizes for guessing it will be Poland here I come for the big money so either way you get screwed over... you pay to watch your club to bring them on and get them to an international standard and what's the first thing they do? Go international... I think I am in the Cynical camp... sorry Regards THJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 2 hours ago, enotian said: So like any other rider then. You get offered a deal and either accept it or reject it. I guess all riders have preferred options but not all of them materialise. Yes there is no protection of your preference on place you want to ride . It's the places they are protecting so if a team has first pick in the draft system and pick rider A he can then decide if he wants to accept or not . If the rider says no the place shall remain open to another rising star and rider A drops out of the scheme. There is no deal to do other than travel money as points payment is set. I would suggest though that prior to any announcement a team would of approached a rider before hand to make sure he's happy going there . 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Fromafar said: Out of interest what happens if the rising star fails to get to the next star level at the end of the season.Will he still be a rising star for 5 years if he fails to improve over the years or will he get “dumped”. There is nothing to say a rider has to get to the next star in a season bu there is a time and age limit on it at this moment. As I understand it once a rider has completed a minimum amount of years in he professional leagues he will lose the star grading protection of riding at reserve. National league is not classed as professional as I understand it 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 7 hours ago, Ringitsneck said: Whilst it’s about time they encouraged the kids into teams this scheme has some major flaws. The lad I help is wondering why he signed for his local club if he’s not going to ride for them because of the draft system? And if he doesn’t do as he’s told by the scheme have you read the consequences ? In fairness he probably signed prior to the announcement and did so in good faith. Also if has signed as an asset there's nothing to stop him riding for them at some point in the future. To be honest though why would a young rider sign for any club as an asset unless they have something tangible offer or promise in front of them. it's going to be difficult for many riders who want to ride at a specific track but end up elsewhere. unfortunately if British speedway doesn't protect the places now it never will. Lots of riders and parents have constantly asked for more help and protection and now it's here people are moaning because some riders may have to go somewhere they don't want to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proud panther Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 The last draft scheme was supposed to be sorted by teams picking who they wanted, & £10 per point. I can assure everybody that neither rule was implemented. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 9 hours ago, bigred said: Can't see how Buckley can be the same grade as Perks / Bates & a higher grade than Kemp / Flint! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 1 hour ago, phillwhitewasmad said: There is nothing to say a rider has to get to the next star in a season bu there is a time and age limit on it at this moment. As I understand it once a rider has completed a minimum amount of years in he professional leagues he will lose the star grading protection of riding at reserve. National league is not classed as professional as I understand it I suppose the Team can drop him though if he has not had the season they expected.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, Fromafar said: I suppose the Team can drop him though if he has not had the season they expected.? Yep or decide to retain him if progressing well. My hope is that teams who have a rider who progresses well enough to move out of the system because of experience or averages is kept on in the main body rather than being replaced the following year for a foreign rider just to increase the asset base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 25 minutes ago, szkocjasid said: Can't see how Buckley can be the same grade as Perks / Bates & a higher grade than Kemp / Flint! Due to riders average at time of selection for the scheme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HGould Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 39 minutes ago, GAH said: kyle bickley above flint & kemp is someone on drugs Bickley will never be much more than an NDL heat leader. Flint and Kemp will be PL heat leaders in time, possibly make good careers in Poland. Flint can go a long way in the Sport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 10 hours ago, Ringitsneck said: Whilst it’s about time they encouraged the kids into teams this scheme has some major flaws. The lad I help is wondering why he signed for his local club if he’s not going to ride for them because of the draft system? And if he doesn’t do as he’s told by the scheme have you read the consequences ? BIgred, when he copied the list, missed 6 riders off Archie Freeman, George Rotherby, Gregor Millar, James Chattin, Macauley Leek 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neila Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 50 minutes ago, GAH said: kyle bickley above flint & kemp is someone on drugs Yea unfortunately he seems to have lost his way a bit, maybe a bit of too much too soon, or maybe if the season starts Kyle can prove he is on the right list ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted February 1, 2021 Report Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Najjer said: Why haven’t they published the list on their site to stop any speculation, or as you put it ‘arguments and negativity’? Teams are signing riders so the list must be finalised.... why the secrecy again?! Because that is the list that has gone to all those mentioned and asking the riders if they want to join the system. No good publishing the list for critics like you, rather wait till the list is formal and then publish it. That's how business is done, not lashed out to just to satisfy the critics. Edited February 1, 2021 by Tsunami 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.