gazzac Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Well there is a thing Drew Kemp is on there as a 3* rider and the impression is that the "Starred Rider" will start at 7 so the question is WTF... Eastie haven't found a loop hole already have they? Honestly you couldn't make this tripe up... Oh hang on I think that's just the thing... back of a fag packet springs to mind for those old enough... Regards THJ I think the only 'loophole' is Eastie committed to their own rising star program over the last 4/5 years and no matter what rules there were last season or this Brennen and Edwards were guaranteed a team place, and to a degree Kemp. As there was never a chance of Edwards riding Premiership this season, and probably next as well, opted out of the latest program, maybe the same with Bowtell etc, unlike Palin,Brennen, Kemp etc who want to go all the way and need a 'rising star's grade for the Premiership. Assume if you opt out of the Championship star rating, you're out of the Premiership one as well? Edited February 10, 2021 by gazzac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proud panther Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Surely Panthers will go with Shanes ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 (edited) 46 minutes ago, mmmmethanol said: Steady old chap. Eastbourne don't set the rules. 31 minutes ago, gazzac said: I think the only 'loophole' is Eastie committed to their own rising star program over the last 4/5 years and no matter what rules there were last season or this Brennen and Edwards were guaranteed a team place, and to a degree Kemp. As there was never a chance of Edwards riding Premiership this season, and probably next as well, opted out of the latest program, maybe the same with Bowtell etc, unlike Palin, Brennen, Kemp etc who want to go all the way and need a 'rising star's grade for the Premiership. Assume if you opt out of the Championship star rating, you're out of the Premiership one as well? Whoa there chaps... No slight on Eastie... I ain't got one problem with their team whatsoever... Just pointing out on the comment made by mmmethanol that Jason has been missed off the list and that the process as far as we are aware is supposed to have your Rising Star at 7, also what Scunny Phil has stated is that if riders opt out of the System they may not get picked as RS riders will get preference; stupid I know but it will be interesting to see what happens in this instance if it was just a typo omission of Jason Edwards not being on the list or if he has opted out and if so will Eastie be forced to put in a 2* rider off the list to complete their team... So whose to blame? well its the system stupid; because in most organisations the buck stops with the boss; but not the BSPL; so who is the boss? is that the Chairman Rob Godfrey and will he take the buck for this clock-up? well he's never seen the buck; in fact he wont know that there is a buck; in fact we will be informed no doubt that it was to his profound regret that no one alerted him to the existence of any buck. During the period under discussion, you see, it was not standard BSPL procedure to monitor the buck... With hindsight he will accept that there was a buck and that if he had known at that time that there was a buck he would have certainly acted upon it and dealt with it and that the buck could have been prevented. But tragically his attention was never drawn to the buck hence the buck does not stop with him, The problem he will advise is with the system; which he had nothing to do with; neither its construct or formulation only its delivery so there is no one to blame other than the system and as such there is nothing to see here so just move on... Next years BSPL press release... Regards THJ Edited February 10, 2021 by TotallyHonestJohn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon1983 Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 The better system would have been taking into consideration there are 12 Championship teams Grade C/D (1 & 2 star) - British Riders Only A list of riders who Championship clubs must select to ride at no.6 & no.7 with C grade at no.6 and D grade at no.7 Grade A/B (3 & 4 star) - Commonwealth Riders Only A list of riders who Championship clubs must select to ride in the main body of the team starting at No. 2 & No.4 Each club picks 1 x Grade A/B/C/D all set points money Clubs then have a team building limit for the remaining "heat leader" spots, Grade A & B can include Aussies that qualify to race over here with the 3 heat leaders its just an upgraded National League Based on 2021 season results riders can fluctuate between Grading if someone struggles as a 3 star rider they can drop to 2 star etc. But this is just me who think its just should be a Two League structure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzac Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 14 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Whoa there chaps... No slight on Eastie... I ain't got one problem with their team whatsoever... Just pointing out on the comment made by mmmethanol that Jason has been missed off the list and that the process as far as we are aware is supposed to have your Rising Star at 7, also what Scunny Phil has stated is that if riders opt out of the System they may not get picked as RS riders will get preference; stupid I know but it will be interesting to see what happens in this instance if it was just a typo omission of Jason Edwards not being on the list or if he has opted out and if so will Eastie be forced to put in a 2* rider off the list to complete their team... So whose to blame? well its the system stupid; because in most organisations the buck stops with the boss; but not the BSPL; so who is the boss? is that the Chairman Rob Godfrey and will he take the buck for this clock-up? well he's never seen the buck; in fact he wont know that there is a buck; in fact we will be informed no doubt that it was to his profound regret that no one alerted him to the existence of any buck. During the period under discussion, you see, it was not standard BSPL procedure to monitor the buck... With hindsight he will accept that there was a buck and that if he had known at that time that there was a buck he would have certainly acted upon it and dealt with it and that the buck could have been prevented. But tragically his attention was never drawn to the buck hence the buck does not stop with him, The problem he will advise is with the system; which he had nothing to do with; neither its construct or formulation only its delivery so there is no one to blame other than the system and as such there is nothing to see here so just move on... Next years BSPL press release... Regards THJ Indeed, but my brain hurts now!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, proud panther said: Surely Panthers will go with Shanes ? Teams would be daft to not snap up the grade 4’s but I really hope Lynn plump for somebody much younger and less experienced at number seven. It’s pretty gutting that Shanes, Bates, Bacon et al are even on the list as I really thought British Speedway had made a proper good decision for once. A real let down. Edited February 10, 2021 by Bagpuss 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 42 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: Whoa there chaps... No slight on Eastie... I ain't got one problem with their team whatsoever... Just pointing out on the comment made by mmmethanol that Jason has been missed off the list and that the process as far as we are aware is supposed to have your Rising Star at 7, also what Scunny Phil has stated is that if riders opt out of the System they may not get picked as RS riders will get preference; stupid I know but it will be interesting to see what happens in this instance if it was just a typo omission of Jason Edwards not being on the list or if he has opted out and if so will Eastie be forced to put in a 2* rider off the list to complete their team... So whose to blame? well its the system stupid; because in most organisations the buck stops with the boss; but not the BSPL; so who is the boss? is that the Chairman Rob Godfrey and will he take the buck for this clock-up? well he's never seen the buck; in fact he wont know that there is a buck; in fact we will be informed no doubt that it was to his profound regret that no one alerted him to the existence of any buck. During the period under discussion, you see, it was not standard BSPL procedure to monitor the buck... With hindsight he will accept that there was a buck and that if he had known at that time that there was a buck he would have certainly acted upon it and dealt with it and that the buck could have been prevented. But tragically his attention was never drawn to the buck hence the buck does not stop with him, The problem he will advise is with the system; which he had nothing to do with; neither its construct or formulation only its delivery so there is no one to blame other than the system and as such there is nothing to see here so just move on... Next years BSPL press release... Regards THJ Eastbourne are breaking no rules they have one rising star in the team . I would suggest Jason has declined the offer to join the scheme as his previously agreed deal is substantially more than the capped pay rates that the scheme insists on. He can join the scheme at a later stage if he wants to or is invited to. He will ride at reserve and his position in the team is not protected like the other reserve. Also remember the position is protected not the rider so they can be dropped. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 I can't remember reading anything official stating that the "rising star" will remain at reserve all year, is this the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 26 minutes ago, phillwhitewasmad said: Eastbourne are breaking no rules they have one rising star in the team . I would suggest Jason has declined the offer to join the scheme as his previously agreed deal is substantially more than the capped pay rates that the scheme insists on. He can join the scheme at a later stage if he wants to or is invited to. He will ride at reserve and his position in the team is not protected like the other reserve. Also remember the position is protected not the rider so they can be dropped. So the rising star can go in at 6 instead of 7? Regards THJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotallyHonestJohn Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Just now, szkocjasid said: I can't remember reading anything official stating that the "rising star" will remain at reserve all year, is this the case? No... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 59 minutes ago, Bagpuss said: Teams would be daft to not snap up the grade 4’s but I really hope Lynn plump for somebody much younger and less experienced at number seven. It’s pretty gutting that Shanes, Bates, Bacon et al are even on the list as I really thought British Speedway had made a proper good decision for once. A real let down. Bacon has improved every year & never had a Prem team spot, he's clearly the sort of rider you want in the system, you could argue against Bates or Shanes I guess! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzac Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Just now, TotallyHonestJohn said: So the rising star can go in at 6 instead of 7? Regards THJ Has it ever really made any difference? Virtually every meeting I've been to normally 3 of the 4 programmed reserve rides have been switched to suit the meeting . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillwhitewasmad Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: So the rising star can go in at 6 instead of 7? Regards THJ I don't know the answer to that but nothing has been announced either way 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, TotallyHonestJohn said: From what I am hearing you are correct... Next season a max of 6 star points for PL team so a 4 + 2 or 3 + 3 rider as Rising Star Reserves and for the CL its 4 Star points per team so a 3 + 1 or a 2 + 2.. That would be far to simple to understand for it to be implemented lol! However I worry using that system grade 2 riders would struggle for team spots as 3+1 would be far the better option (a 2.90 rider with a promising newcomer vs 2 riders who couldn't reach a 2.00 ave)! So weaker riders could get one year then tossed on the scrapheap each season! Edited February 10, 2021 by szkocjasid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 47 minutes ago, szkocjasid said: Bacon has improved every year & never had a Prem team spot, he's clearly the sort of rider you want in the system, you could argue against Bates or Shanes I guess! That’s fair enough and I’d have extended the scheme so that riders like him, Shanes, Mountain and Bates could ride at six with an U21 at seven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screm Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Bagpuss said: Teams would be daft to not snap up the grade 4’s but I really hope Lynn plump for somebody much younger and less experienced at number seven. It’s pretty gutting that Shanes, Bates, Bacon et al are even on the list as I really thought British Speedway had made a proper good decision for once. A real let down. With Leon Flint and Drew Kemp in grade 3 there should be plenty of takers for those two. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
szkocjasid Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Doesn't make a difference this season but may for future years, Jordan Jenkins is 2* rather than 1* because he rode a whole TWO matches for Birmingham in 2019! So in the future if a 1* rider gets injured / loses form near the end of the season it could be tough to sign a replacement, cause who would be willing to race a handful of matches at the end of the season if it means they'd be graded 2* the following year? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted February 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 hours ago, Sings4Speedway said: I cannot echo and agree with the above statements enough. Ive always felt the best approach is to get places dependant on merit rather than x criteria, ultimately if you are good enough you are in. If you cannot achieve the required level at a lower league why should you deserve a chance to move up. Like many i can see so many flaws in the new system not least that better riders could and likely will miss out on places due to complex team building restrictions all the while lesser riders will have the confidence beaten out of them being the whipping boys. When was the last time you saw a rider with no mechanical issues or falls lapped..... I agree that riders should obtain their place on merit and not handed a place on a plate. But remember in 2021 we're only talking about 12 places. Between the 3* and 1* grades there are easily 12 riders of capable of being competitive in the 2021 CL. If certain promoters decide to pick an uncompetitive RS then that's their choice. The old 2.00 reserve didn't always go to a rider on merit anyway. How often did the points limit dictate that 2.00 pointer was thrown in to get under the limit while a better rider on say 2.32 was left on the side lines. At least this removes that issue. I think the idea of creating a pathway for young British riders is a good one. Unfortunately the 2.00 assessed starting average isn't enough to do that. How many times has a promising youngster upped their 2.00 average only to be replaced by an old hand on a lower average but perceived to be an improvement. Seen this at Newcastle many times, Andersson, Schramm, Mills being brought in at #7 based on past reputation. With youngsters dropped. How many times did James Burkinshaw move away from Sheffield get a low average to return to the Tigers the following season to increase his average? As I've posted previously this attempt looks over engineered to get to the position of securing a development pathway for British youngsters. All that needed to be done was to remove those old hands from obtaining team places on low averages. Easily done. Just set a minimum assessed average based on rider experience. Just like new British riders start on a 2.00 over 60 matches have a minimum average of 3.00 over 90 matches have a minimum average of 4.00 over 120 matches have a minimum average of 5.00 any non UK riders have a minimum average of 6.00 For example if a rider with over 120 matches has an actual CMA of 3.33 they can still obtain a team place but on a 5.00 average for team building. Naturally creating team places for inexperienced British riders but also incentivising them to progress their performances to achieve the minimum average. It would mean that teams could build a side with strength in depth if they couldn't afford/find top heat leaders and still have a competitive side. As it stands the 15 heat format already favours teams with strong 1st and 2nd heat leaders. This new system compounds that by levelling out heats 2, 8, 12 and 14 which teams with strong reserves would normally have had an advantage in. That balance doesn't exist anymore so if you haven't got a strong top two (or a wonder kid at #7) you're going to struggle. In summary a good strategy poorly implemented. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted February 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, szkocjasid said: Doesn't make a difference this season but may for future years, Jordan Jenkins is 2* rather than 1* because he rode a whole TWO matches for Birmingham in 2019! So in the future if a 1* rider gets injured / loses form near the end of the season it could be tough to sign a replacement, cause who would be willing to race a handful of matches at the end of the season if it means they'd be graded 2* the following year? I don't think we can apply these gradings to anything other than 2021. Surely, for example, Jordan Palin doesn't remain a 1* for the next 5 years!!!!! By 2026 he could be in the SGP FFS 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted February 11, 2021 Report Share Posted February 11, 2021 9 hours ago, enotian said: I don't think we can apply these gradings to anything other than 2021. Surely, for example, Jordan Palin doesn't remain a 1* for the next 5 years!!!!! By 2026 he could be in the SGP FFS What about "Young Dan Bewley", and "Young Robert Lambert"? Not had that many years experience in the UK and still very much 'Rising Stars'.. Maybe a 5* grade could be introduced..? But start them at the back like Stock Cars do.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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