Whats actually going on?

[Sings4Speedway]

5 minutes ago, phillwhitewasmad said:

Personally I think all opinions are valid don't always agree but there are lots of posters on here have nothing positive to say. Moan about lack of opportunities and the state of the sport then moan about the things that are put in place to help it. Support it embrace it it's easier to smile than frown 

My complaints are about the calibre of riders offered opportunities (see kents new signings) there are riders who have busted a gut for years and are far better who get dropped or ignored. Yes there is deadwood that needs chopping out but a league of heat leaders and reserves with no middle ground is short sighted. All change again next year

[Islander15]

4 hours ago, Ringitsneck said:

The financial situation and team building is the very same faced by every other club in all three divisions. 

 

It’s a completely unique situation regarding team building in the NL and even more so to the standalone clubs! The points limit was drastically reduced and they were just told it was being reduced. The league has to be viable and offer a competitive product, not just have other leagues impose rules on it for their own benefit. They wanted a reserve league and they’ve created a reserve league. 

[Halifaxtiger]

13 hours ago, Ringitsneck said:

The financial situation and team building is the very same faced by every other club in all three divisions. 

 

The financial situation and team building in the NDL is very different to the other leagues. As greyhoundp has pointed out, the points limit was imposed - apparently without any discussion or negotiation - on NDL clubs by BSPL members who, in some cases, do not even have an NDL team. That is not the case in the higher leagues. 

A few years ago, Scunthorpe ran an extremely weak NDL side but every one of their matches was run as a double header with the Championship team for one reason and one reason only: Rob Godfrey knew no-one would pay to watch it if it ran the NDL meetings seperately. My understanding is that Newcastle (at least) plan to do the same. Consequently, a double up club can afford to run a weakened NL side  - Isle of Wight cannot, as they rely on putting out a competitive and attractive team to pull in spectators.

12 hours ago, Ringitsneck said:

You really should start your own Facebook page and put all your conspiracy theories together and start a revolution. The sport certainly needs one.

I told you ages ago , before it went public, what was happening and you didn’t believe me, now it’s all out there you have decided to make it something it isn’t. What benefit is there to the two higher divisions of weakening the DEVELOPMENT division , and that word is important, other than making it actually DEVELOP some new talent ?

Theres been riders in that division who have made it their comfort zone for easy money for too long, now they can’t, I think that is for the good of the SPORT not just the higher divisions.

IOW have decided not to run for the short season which is 2021, that’s their choice. They havent closed, they haven’t been bulldozed, they are still there and can come back when they chose.

As for 5 years time, we don’t even know there if there will be ANY speedway by then the way it’s going but let’s give it chance.

 

The reasoning for weakening the NDL - or at least the team strength - is an attempt to get other clubs to join. It has to be questioned just how many of the new teams would have joined the league if the points limit had stayed at 39.

No rider is in a 'comfort zone for easy money' in the NDL. True, some have been there for years but that is simply because they have reached their level and have nowhere else to go. It would be ludicrous to suggest that any rider would remain in the NDL if their ability guaranteed a place in one of the higher leagues. 

You must know something I don't because at no point have Isle of Wight simply said this is a matter of 2021 only. They could, indeed, have closed for good.

12 hours ago, Fortythirtyeight said:

Sings4speedway appears to be after the job of ‘ Voice of the Isle of Wight ‘ club or even after ‘ Voice of the NDL ‘ but then there are some happy clubs involved so perhaps not.

Personaly I think it’s about time the division did go back to its roots of bringing on young riders , who only ride for expenses , like they did in the old days , or as it seems to be popular at the moment , “ for the benefit of the sport “ !

You say 'go back to its roots of bringing on young riders' as though that has not been done for years. One check of the British riders in the Premiership and Championship for 2021 will show that they all started their careers in the third tier of the sport, as did our two representatives at the highest level, Tai Woffinden and Robert Lambert.

The NDL has no need to 'go back' to developing riders as it has been doing a pretty decent job of that since it was formed.

10 hours ago, foamfence said:

They've taken their ball home, I'm glad I'm not one of their supporters.

You're obviously not aware of the reputation that the promotion at Isle of Wight have built up since 2016.When Mimmo said that they were the 'most forward looking club at any level, that I can remember seeing for many a long year' his comments were neither exaggerated nor misplaced - that's the general view of a large number of people from right across the sport who has either had the opportunity of attending one of their meetings or has followed their progress closely.

One glance at facebook comments following the news of their closure will show that while there is a significant degree of sadness and disappointment at what has happened there is no anger or criticism whatsoever - indeed there is a large amount of support for their actions. As far as their supporters are concerned, while there are those to blame for the demise of the Warriors that does not extend to Barry Bishop and Martin Widman. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Halifaxtiger

[Islander15]

No disrespect to Kent, but their team just proves why these new proposals don’t work!

They have a 40+ year old who cannot be described as ‘developing’. They have a number 1 who also has a Premiership team place! The rules should facilitate Kinsley to also ride Championship, not NL. Whilst having x4 3pointers which will clearly make a large disparity in races between those and the heat leaders. 

That’s not a team that attracts fans. Fair enough, it might as a second tier as their fans stay behind to watch which of the 3.00 men might grace the Championship team in the future but it won’t make competitive racing for a stand-alone team or a neutral to travel afar to come and watch. 

[foamfence]

1 hour ago, Halifaxtiger said:

The financial situation and team building in the NDL is very different to the other leagues. As greyhoundp has pointed out, the points limit was imposed - apparently without any discussion or negotiation - on NDL clubs by BSPL members who, in some cases, do not even have an NDL team. That is not the case in the higher leagues. 

A few years ago, Scunthorpe ran an extremely weak NDL side but every one of their matches was run as a double header with the Championship team for one reason and one reason only: Rob Godfrey knew no-one would pay to watch it if it ran the NDL meetings seperately. My understanding is that Newcastle (at least) plan to do the same. Consequently, a double up club can afford to run a weakened NL side  - Isle of Wight cannot, as they rely on putting out a competitive and attractive team to pull in spectators.

The reasoning for weakening the NDL - or at least the team strength - is an attempt to get other clubs to join. It has to be questioned just how many of the new teams would have joined the league if the points limit had stayed at 39.

No rider is in a 'comfort zone for easy money' in the NDL. True, some have been there for years but that is simply because they have reached their level and have nowhere else to go. It would be ludicrous to suggest that any rider would remain in the NDL if their ability guaranteed a place in one of the higher leagues. 

You must know something I don't because at no point have Isle of Wight simply said this is a matter of 2021 only. They could, indeed, have closed for good.

You say 'go back to its roots of bringing on young riders' as though that has not been done for years. One check of the British riders in the Premiership and Championship for 2021 will show that they all started their careers in the third tier of the sport, as did our two representatives at the highest level, Tai Woffinden and Robert Lambert.

The NDL has no need to 'go back' to developing riders as it has been doing a pretty decent job of that since it was formed.

You're obviously not aware of the reputation that the promotion at Isle of Wight have built up since 2016.When Mimmo said that they were the 'most forward looking club at any level, that I can remember seeing for many a long year' his comments were neither exaggerated nor misplaced - that's the general view of a large number of people from right across the sport who has either had the opportunity of attending one of their meetings or has followed their progress closely.

One glance at facebook comments following the news of their closure will show that while there is a significant degree of sadness and disappointment at what has happened there is no anger or criticism whatsoever - indeed there is a large amount of support for their actions. As far as their supporters are concerned, while there are those to blame for the demise of the Warriors that does not extend to Barry Bishop and Martin Widman. 

Nothing obvious about it, I stand by what I wrote, they've let people down.

[Sings4Speedway]

1 hour ago, Islander15 said:

No disrespect to Kent, but their team just proves why these new proposals don’t work!

They have a 40+ year old who cannot be described as ‘developing’. They have a number 1 who also has a Premiership team place! The rules should facilitate Kinsley to also ride Championship, not NL. Whilst having x4 3pointers which will clearly make a large disparity in races between those and the heat leaders. 

That’s not a team that attracts fans. Fair enough, it might as a second tier as their fans stay behind to watch which of the 3.00 men might grace the Championship team in the future but it won’t make competitive racing for a stand-alone team or a neutral to travel afar to come and watch. 

Looking further ahead once this season has completed the heat leader level riders will all likely end on averages that would prevent them from being sensibly sign able for next year (unless the points limit is made higher again). This will lead to one of two scenarios teams will be built of 2 high averages and the rest new 3 pointers with a lot of the current new crop cast aside or the new riders with falsely inflated averages will start to form the new heat leaders and so the standard diminishes. If a rider in the MDL achieves and 8 point average it does not make him/her a guaranteed NL rider and yet if you fill a league with MDL level riders you will get some of these becoming 8 point NL riders. Diluting the standard doesn't mean they will be any better it just makes the numbers worthless. 

This is all heading towards the meetings not having the merit to justifiably run as a sole event and will all end up double headers, if more teams are included (mandated or otherwise) it will be reduced to 4 rider teams to accommodate and finally the Premier(&Championship) Junior League will be born.

[arnieg]

1 hour ago, foamfence said:

Nothing obvious about it, I stand by what I wrote, they've let people down.

If anybody connected to the Warriors or supporting them feels let down,  I'd wager that they most likely feel let down by speedway's governing bodies and not by Barry and Martin.

[mikebv]

2 hours ago, foamfence said:

Nothing obvious about it, I stand by what I wrote, they've let people down.

I presume then Swindon and Somerset have done the same too?

The IOW have a business model, just like the two clubs above, and all three have decided that they cannot continue this season given the current less than clear conditions re levels of crowds..

And, unlike some, the IOW team dont seem to run the Speedway as some kind of 'hobby' and offset losses via other parts of a wider business ownership, therefore they have to make money. (Or at least break even/run at affordable small loss)..

A shame we have lost one of the most progressive promotions in the UK, hopefully it's only for a year..

 

 

 

[Islander15]

1 hour ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Looking further ahead once this season has completed the heat leader level riders will all likely end on averages that would prevent them from being sensibly sign able for next year (unless the points limit is made higher again). This will lead to one of two scenarios teams will be built of 2 high averages and the rest new 3 pointers with a lot of the current new crop cast aside or the new riders with falsely inflated averages will start to form the new heat leaders and so the standard diminishes. If a rider in the MDL achieves and 8 point average it does not make him/her a guaranteed NL rider and yet if you fill a league with MDL level riders you will get some of these becoming 8 point NL riders. Diluting the standard doesn't mean they will be any better it just makes the numbers worthless. 

This is all heading towards the meetings not having the merit to justifiably run as a sole event and will all end up double headers, if more teams are included (mandated or otherwise) it will be reduced to 4 rider teams to accommodate and finally the Premier(&Championship) Junior League will be born.

Exactly but they really only think of 1 year at a time despite talk of a 5 year plan. 

[Ringitsneck]

Halifaxtiger in response to your well written post I have just a couple of points to clarify;

We don’t know officially that the points limit was imposed or discussed before hand as we were not there but it’s is the same for every club and therefore the club makes a decision to run based on that. 
As for knowing something you don’t know, where does it say IOW have closed for good ?

it doesn’t, that’s just speculation on your part.

Speedway in the UK needs to develop more young riders not just the odd one or two ‘ naturals ‘ who graduate up through the divisions through their own desire and talent. We need GP standard riders yes, but we also need the solid second strings and the guys who appear for a season or two till the ambition runs out. This has to be done in a structured way with a clear path , introducing riders from amateurs into the NDL , letting them develop without the promise of easy money and then moving up the standards. If you speak to the more honest riders who have spent several seasons in the NDL as heat leaders and they tell you the points money some NDL clubs were willing to pay them , then you will understand my term ‘ easy money ‘ and why those riders hung around in a league they were not developing in, if anything they were stagnating. I know riders in the NDL who were earning more for a race win than some people get paid a week ! I accept that wasn’t the case at every club, Buxton were the one and only club who ran as it should be and look what the rest of the league did to them by paying such wages.

The loss ( temporary or otherwise ) of the IOW is extremely disappointing , a very well run club, but the sport needs overhauling and if this is the start , however unpopular it is, then so be it. 
We will never all agree on everything , that’s human nature.
 

 

 

 

 

 

[flipper11]

14 hours ago, Sings4Speedway said:

As my opinions are no longer considered part of debate or interest to the blinkered many i wont bother anymore. Speedway can poke it

Carry on sings everyone is entitled to their opinion and I have to say I agree with most of what you say

[Sings4Speedway]

12 minutes ago, Richard Weston said:

Please carry on posting. Your views are always put across in a clear way and never seek to  be deliberately annoying.

Sometimes I agree with you and sometimes I don't. You are always welcome at Eastbourne where you can see the club is setting out to develop their own riders and to have a 'ladder' within the club for them to progress: MSDL to NDL to Championship. If you are good enough etc

It's that same sort of progression ladder you find in many instances in working life...makes sense to me.

Appreciated was definitely a rush of emotions although you may regret it Eastbourne are certainly moving in the right direction and do take care of their riders and reap the rewards of the development. They are also a side that does look at ability over anything else and the track at Arlington certainly sorts out those with the skill sets from those that don't. 

I hope that there is some level of MSDL for the Lakeside Seagulls to take part in but with ghost teams gone it only leaves Birmingham & Eastbourne? 

[mikebv]

Looking at the teams being assembled, and what appears to be quite a long "tail" for most teams, would it have been better to run maybe 5 man teams in the NL? Or even 4 team tournaments?

More actual teams maybe but less riders, with a much lower difference between standard. The difference in standard being so important when it comes to the entertainment served up.

The best lads wont gain anything from beating the 'wobblers' and the lads 'wobbling' wont gain anything from getting hammered by the best lads..

You wont get a 'wobbler' to HL status in a season, but you might get a Second String there, so these "middle" riders are the ones who should be given priority places, and the most opportunity to race against their next level of rider..

Let the 2, and 3 point NL average lads race together in 'proper' second halves and see the NL place in a team as something to aspire to. Not to just be handed one so you can be a "makeweight" because your average fits..

Its great that we seem to have a joined up development path for riders, however the on track entertainment will be vital to maintain the public's interest..

Not sure seven man teams will deliver this given the difference in standard in virtually every heat..

[ONTWOMINUTES]

Nice to see teams filling up the places with home grown talent - not, and then people wonder why british speedway way is in a mess . I feel sorry for the british riders who will end up without a team . 

Edited February 27, 2021 by ONTWOMINUTES

[arnieg]

A candid post on Facebook from Barry and Martin

https://m.facebook.com/groups/216596265131644/permalink/2742996475824931/?anchor_composer=false

[racers and royals]

1 hour ago, arnieg said:

A candid post on Facebook from Barry and Martin

https://m.facebook.com/groups/216596265131644/permalink/2742996475824931/?anchor_composer=false

Can you summarise as that appears to be a private group.

[old bob at herne bay]

"Admittedly the cut to 35 for team build is harsh and has led to some unsavoury measures to allow teams to come under the limit but it had to be done ."

 

What a load of tosh.  So every season you chop the team building average drastically -  losing half your previous season's side in the interests of fitting under the new points limit. Dont see any savings here for the clubs the NL has a fixed pay  limit. We see either stars of yesteryear appear on some assessed average , or rabbits sprung in to the league on an invented minimum average . Its a race to the bottom.

The NL seems to be heading back to the days of watching the air fence being repaired 15 times a meeting - watching novice riders practice their mistakes. To charge fans to watch this stuff is an insult.     It's not entertainment.

[Halifaxtiger]

On 2/26/2021 at 9:58 AM, Ringitsneck said:

Halifaxtiger in response to your well written post I have just a couple of points to clarify;

We don’t know officially that the points limit was imposed or discussed before hand as we were not there but it’s is the same for every club and therefore the club makes a decision to run based on that. 
As for knowing something you don’t know, where does it say IOW have closed for good ?

it doesn’t, that’s just speculation on your part.

Speedway in the UK needs to develop more young riders not just the odd one or two ‘ naturals ‘ who graduate up through the divisions through their own desire and talent. We need GP standard riders yes, but we also need the solid second strings and the guys who appear for a season or two till the ambition runs out. This has to be done in a structured way with a clear path , introducing riders from amateurs into the NDL , letting them develop without the promise of easy money and then moving up the standards. If you speak to the more honest riders who have spent several seasons in the NDL as heat leaders and they tell you the points money some NDL clubs were willing to pay them , then you will understand my term ‘ easy money ‘ and why those riders hung around in a league they were not developing in, if anything they were stagnating. I know riders in the NDL who were earning more for a race win than some people get paid a week ! I accept that wasn’t the case at every club, Buxton were the one and only club who ran as it should be and look what the rest of the league did to them by paying such wages.

The loss ( temporary or otherwise ) of the IOW is extremely disappointing , a very well run club, but the sport needs overhauling and if this is the start , however unpopular it is, then so be it. 
We will never all agree on everything , that’s human nature.
 

 

 

 

 

 

Couple of points :

Barry Bishop says the limit was imposed and there was no discussion.

Forgive me being pedantic but you said Isle of Wight 'havent closed', I said 'They could, indeed, have closed for good'. One is a statement of fact, the other of possibility.

I'd maintain no rider stays in the NDL unless they feel it absolutely necessary. If there are or were  indeed riders who sat in that league just for the money, care to name them ? 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Halifaxtiger

[Bagpuss]

So am I right in thinking the points limit reduction is an effort to get more genuine youngsters and novices into the NL and clear out a few older, ‘professional’ third division riders who have been riding at this level for several years? Or am I misunderstanding? 

[Halifaxtiger]

Just now, Bagpuss said:

So am I right in thinking the points limit reduction is an effort to get more genuine youngsters and novices into the NL and clear out a few older, ‘professional’ third division riders who have been riding at this level for several years? Or am I misunderstanding? 

In truth, I think it is to encourage more clubs to enter the league.

You can argue that is not unreasonable - with Plymouth, Cradley and Stoke leaving and a question mark over the Colts there would only have been Kent, Leicester, Mildenhall and Isle of Wight left - but it still should have been done following full discussion with member clubs. It wasn't and was imposed by BSPL members who don't even run NDL teams.

The upshot is that we have lost by far and away the most innovative, customer focussed and progressive club in the sport (and that is anything but just my opinion).