2021 Season

[The Third Man]

29 minutes ago, RS50 said:

The guest rule is open to manipulation. Years ago I remember James Grieves being unavailable for a match at Sheffield. Although he was a good 2nd tier heat leader he rode Sheffield like a 3rd tier reserve. His team brought in Simon Stead as guest.

I have often wondered if guests should be chosen by a neutral to try to make the replacement as equal as possible. However I think trying to get someone to accept this poison challis may not be so easy. 

The one i remember with James Grieves was the 1999 cup semi final where he was "Ill" when Edinburgh visited.

they replaced him with Paul Pickering and won by a few points with Pickering scoring well

[Najjer]

34 minutes ago, RS50 said:

The guest rule is open to manipulation. Years ago I remember James Grieves being unavailable for a match at Sheffield. Although he was a good 2nd tier heat leader he rode Sheffield like a 3rd tier reserve. His team brought in Simon Stead as guest.

I have often wondered if guests should be chosen by a neutral to try to make the replacement as equal as possible. However I think trying to get someone to accept this poison challis may not be so easy. 

It’s been going on for years. I remember in that year I mentioned in 2008 it was actually seen as bad news when Simon Walker came back from injury.

It’s too easy to use guests nowadays and nobody wants to watch a team full of guests. That is one of the biggest problems... especially when the chairman has said the reason certain teams can’t ride in the league because it limits his own choice of guests for his side!! D’oh!

[MD]

The guest system should use the home or away averages for riders rather than the combined i.e. riding away from home you can only use a guest with an away average up to the absent riders' away average.

[Fortythirtyeight]

2 hours ago, Najjer said:

What is the problem with doubling up and doubling down? The teams in the Premiership and Chanpionship never race eachother and they no longer ride on the same nights to create a clash of fixtures, so what’s the problem? The only thing it does is create a solution to potential rider shortage and fill up the quota of riders needed across both leagues.

The problem is the guest rule - where you have one rider ride for several teams within a week before then riding against them for his actual team at the weekend. That is madness and should be limited and/or stopped. I’m a strong believer in that guests shouldn’t be allowed full stop if only one rider is missing. In which case rider replacement should be used. If two or more riders are missing then a guest should be allowed, but only on the value of their home or away average depending on whether they are at home or away. I remember back in 2008 at Somerset when we had guests like Craig Watson replacing Simon Walker away from home because of his inflated home average, when he was pretty useless away. A guest replacement should never make a team stronger. There has to be some sort of limit imposed either on the rider, the team or over a time period restricting how many times they can be used in my opinion.

You obviously haven’t been following the speedway forums for very long as EVERYBODY was kicking off about too many riders doubling up, no club identity, no club loyalty, no difference between the divisions and outsiders thinking the sport was a joke .

If your happy with doubling, that’s your choice but don’t then try and use the guest rule as an excuse. If there isn’t enough riders to fill  teams in the first place then guests are going to be used , and abused , like they have done. Hence the arguments about too many Friday night tracks, lack of available riders!
If we haven't got enough riders , don’t have so many teams or even perhaps so many divisions?

[gmuncie]

For me there is zero reason whatsoever for the points limit to be reduced, 

the 2 arguments for it seem to be 

1 - rider availability 

2 - cost cutting 

both of these are absolute nonsense, there are riders available to fill slots left by riders not returning and if the issue is lack of heat leaders then instead of having a 9 point man and a 3 point man sign 2 5.5/6 point man there seems to be an abundance of these.

cost cutting is the biggest fallacy of proponents of reducing the average as simple economics is cost is dictated by supply and demand all you do in that instance is move the demand to lower average riders who in turn increase their demands. I remember the year that 2 British reserves were dictated below a certain average the Monarchs approached a few and were keen to sign one who then promptly demanded a ridiculous signing on fee and other perks that would have made his package on a par with Craig Cook all this for a guy who has never turned a wheel at Championship level (and now I think might be out the sport) 

The limit should stay at 41 points and if we have teams that can’t build to that and aren’t competitive then that’s on them. Why is there always this constant rush in speedway to lower standards to that of the worst rather than raise them to that of the best?

[Fromafar]

1 minute ago, gmuncie said:

For me there is zero reason whatsoever for the points limit to be reduced, 

the 2 arguments for it seem to be 

1 - rider availability 

2 - cost cutting 

both of these are absolute nonsense, there are riders available to fill slots left by riders not returning and if the issue is lack of heat leaders then instead of having a 9 point man and a 3 point man sign 2 5.5/6 point man there seems to be an abundance of these.

cost cutting is the biggest fallacy of proponents of reducing the average as simple economics is cost is dictated by supply and demand all you do in that instance is move the demand to lower average riders who in turn increase their demands. I remember the year that 2 British reserves were dictated below a certain average the Monarchs approached a few and were keen to sign one who then promptly demanded a ridiculous signing on fee and other perks that would have made his package on a par with Craig Cook all this for a guy who has never turned a wheel at Championship level (and now I think might be out the sport) 

The limit should stay at 41 points and if we have teams that can’t build to that and aren’t competitive then that’s on them. Why is there always this constant rush in speedway to lower standards to that of the worst rather than raise them to that of the best?

Excellent Post.100% agree.

[Najjer]

1 hour ago, Fortythirtyeight said:

You obviously haven’t been following the speedway forums for very long as EVERYBODY was kicking off about too many riders doubling up, no club identity, no club loyalty, no difference between the divisions and outsiders thinking the sport was a joke .

If your happy with doubling, that’s your choice but don’t then try and use the guest rule as an excuse. If there isn’t enough riders to fill  teams in the first place then guests are going to be used , and abused , like they have done. Hence the arguments about too many Friday night tracks, lack of available riders!
If we haven't got enough riders , don’t have so many teams or even perhaps so many divisions?

The problem that people in the past haven’t been happy about was when as an example, Paul Starke missed meetings for Poole in the top tier in the past because he was riding for Somerset on the same night in the 2nd tier. That’s just an example. This problem was then solved by the introduction of fixed race nights. Aslong as the riders signed up to my team attend every meeting then what’s the issue then?

You’ve misunderstood my point on the guest rule that I have. I have pointed out that I think it’s a big problem that as soon as a rider is missing, guests are immediately deployed. I have suggested this shouldn’t be the case and should have to be the very last resort.... whilst also suggesting some form of restriction to prevent certain riders being able to ride for so many different teams. There was a ridiculous situation a few years ago when Scott Nichols rode for about 3 teams in a week before then riding against those teams for his actual team later that week. 

Just for reference, I’ve been a regular member of this forum for over 15 years  

[Najjer]

23 hours ago, HGould said:

A lower limit would suit Brummies. 

Don't want Championship dumbed down to NDL level though. 

Can't see problem with 41 point limit. 

Read what Glasgow and Somerset have said in today's Speedway Star. 

How would you fancy ringing up a Rider and telling him he's sacked and you want his suit and signing on fee back due to reduced points limit. 

Higher the limit better the quality. 

Don't see any signs of any Championship Clubs dropping out, quite opposite. 

Championship is thriving. 

What did Glasgow and Somerset say in the speedway star?

[arnieg]

2 hours ago, gmuncie said:

For me there is zero reason whatsoever for the points limit to be reduced, ....

there are riders available to fill slots left by riders not returning and if the issue is lack of heat leaders then instead of having a 9 point man and a 3 point man sign 2 5.5/6 point man there seems to be an abundance of these.

Simply not true. I struggle to think of a single unattached rider with an average over  5 who rode in 2019 and isn't already in possession 9f a 2021 team Place.

[ruffdiamond]

2 hours ago, Najjer said:

The problem that people in the past haven’t been happy 

Do you see that changing? 

[mikebv]

What so many on here who bemoan the guest system conveniently forget is that Speedway is the only team sport in the whole wide world that has injuries so therefore there is no alternative...

Also due to doubling up, down, in, out, shake it all about, it means it becomes virtually impossible to plan in fixtures without riders needing to be in two places at once. We may have a vaccine for Covid 19 in less than 12 months but there cannot be a scientist alive clever enough who could deliver a fixture list which prevents clubs who have the same riders clashing...

I am so grateful that a few years ago when Craig Cook signed for Glasgow half way through the season he had to miss an Aces match (who he rode for all that season) at Swindon, I think the week after signing for Glasgow..

Luckily we brought in Pooles Brady Kurtz and he top scored for the Aces in a very famous victory which virtually clinched our play off place which had been looking in danger...

I will never forget the open top bus parade back in Manchester the following night as thousands thronged the streets to celebrate....

Edited December 11, 2020 by mikebv

[gmuncie]

7 hours ago, arnieg said:

Simply not true. I struggle to think of a single unattached rider with an average over  5 who rode in 2019 and isn't already in possession 9f a 2021 team Place.

BWD, Lasse Bjerre, Dmitri Berge, Thomas Jonasson (I know there are commitment issues there) 4 off the top of my head 

throw in riders who potentially could double up/down as averages allow such as Bewley, Lidsey, Porsing, Tungate, Anderson, Jensen, Musielak

obviously not all of these riders are available but it only needs a couple to be and it’s problem solved really 

[arnieg]

9 hours ago, gmuncie said:

BWD, Lasse Bjerre, Dmitri Berge, Thomas Jonasson (I know there are commitment issues there) 4 off the top of my head 

throw in riders who potentially could double up/down as averages allow such as Bewley, Lidsey, Porsing, Tungate, Anderson, Jensen, Musielak

obviously not all of these riders are available but it only needs a couple to be and it’s problem solved really 

So your solution to the problem of foreign riders not coming over because of logistical difficulties is more foreigners. (Not to mention a host of riders already committed to Poland - good luck with that)

[Guest]

14 hours ago, mikebv said:

What so many on here who bemoan the guest system conveniently forget is that Speedway is the only team sport in the whole wide world that has injuries so therefore there is no alternative...

Hmmm!!! How sad that what you mention dominates speedway.

[Hunters]

Glasgow are not alone Eastbourne are already on record fully supporting them.

Has any other championship side acted similarly?

 

[Fromafar]

34 minutes ago, Hunters said:

Glasgow are not alone Eastbourne are already on record fully supporting them.

Has any other championship side acted similarly?

 

The BSPA just create their own problems.IMO.If the Promotions had already been told that they would be able to field the same riders for next season they should not go back on their word.If there are stronger Teams in the league so be it.Teams on paper don’t win anything it’s on the track that matters.

[SteveLyric2]

1 hour ago, Hunters said:

Glasgow are not alone Eastbourne are already on record fully supporting them.

Has any other championship side acted similarly?

 

Somerset are supportive of the Glasgow position.

A number of other clubs are supportive of 'the bigger picture'?!

Poole have stated they are happy to go with the majority - presumably having sounded out possible replacements for Adam Ellis just in case?!

Lets not forget the Promoters have been having regular Zoom meetings so they all know what the points options and/or team numbers are likely to be.  Its simply that some are keeping their own counsel whilst others go public!!

[Big Al]

What a complete fiasco, cock up, failure. No easy way out from this now.

[ch958]

wait til diluted teams turn up at Glasgow and 250 fans turn up. They need to get real.

[tyretrax]

Never noticed any drop in support when "weaker" teams turned up at Glasgow.