MORE POLISH LEAGUE INTERFERENCE

[IainB]

13 hours ago, mikebv said:

Robert Lambert is for me the obvious example of a lad who benefited enormously from riding competitive meetings abroad when he wasn't allowed to do the same over here, and more than held his own. And beating those at the time who he will race against many times over the next few years at such a tender age must have been a huge confidence boost to take forward..

Which Polish club did Robert ride for and from what age? Genuine question

[Najjer]

Another young Brit, Jack Smith has just signed for German club Wittstock. However, they compete in the Polish 2nd Division so add him to the growing list of young Brits in the Polish league.

[Fromafar]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

Which Polish club did Robert ride for and from what age? Genuine question

Not sure about Poland but he rode in Germany in League when he was 15.

[IainB]

56 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Not sure about Poland but he rode in Germany in League when he was 15.

Thanks Fromafar, yeah, I know that but I think the discussion is about British youth signing up to Polish clubs. I know Lambert shone in a pretty p155 poor Rybnik team last year, I genuinely don't know what he's done in Poland before this though

[arnieg]

46 minutes ago, iainb said:

Thanks Fromafar, yeah, I know that but I think the discussion is about British youth signing up to Polish clubs. I know Lambert shone in a pretty p155 poor Rybnik team last year, I genuinely don't know what he's done in Poland before this though

Record here:

http://www.zuzel.ugu.pl/index.php?profil=3021&tab=1

 

[Fromafar]

While this is about British Youth signing up in Poland and I wish them well,but unless they are getting a decent retaining fee I fail to see how they will get enough chances to ride and make money given the number of youngsters in Poland.Like has been pointed out British riders at a much higher level have failed to “ cut the mustard” at Polish level.

[IainB]

1 hour ago, arnieg said:

Record here:

http://www.zuzel.ugu.pl/index.php?profil=3021&tab=1

 

Looks like Robert got a fair crack of the whip then, but obviously he was scoring the points. Compare that to Dan Bewley in the season just gone, straight into the top league, totally out of his depth, dropped brought back due to injuries on loaned equipment... I wonder if Wroclaw will have him back next season

[Najjer]

Just now, iainb said:

Looks like Robert got a fair crack of the whip then, but obviously he was scoring the points. Compare that to Dan Bewley in the season just gone, straight into the top league, totally out of his depth, dropped brought back due to injuries on loaned equipment... I wonder if Wroclaw will have him back next season

He wasn’t dropped - he got injured in a non speedway related accident and returned back home, making him unavailable for selection until the latter part of the season.

[Red Flag]

19 minutes ago, iainb said:

Looks like Robert got a fair crack of the whip then, but obviously he was scoring the points. Compare that to Dan Bewley in the season just gone, straight into the top league, totally out of his depth, dropped brought back due to injuries on loaned equipment... I wonder if Wroclaw will have him back next season

As far as I’m aware he has already been re signed for next season

[IainB]

14 minutes ago, Najjer said:

He wasn’t dropped - he got injured in a non speedway related accident and returned back home, making him unavailable for selection until the latter part of the season.

Bewley was dropped after the signing of Chris Holder.

https://www.speedwaygp.com/news/article/8375/bewley-breaks-shoulder-blade-in

He was also effectively dropped in every match after one ride!

[Bagpuss]

This is an interesting debate. Personally I think it boils down to what these young riders want to achieve from their careers.....based the the assumption that British speedway is reasonably unaffected by COVID then they can learn their trade in this country and probably end up earning decent money doubling up across our two leagues and emulating the likes of Cook, King, Wright, Worall and Harris. If they aspire to be more like Woffy & Lambert and want to give themselves the best chance to earn the big money in Poland as well as getting into GP, SWC and SEC then broadening their horizons now as teenagers and getting themselves known in Poland and learning the tracks etc is a must. Being an expert around Eastbourne, Edinburgh and Wolves is no good if you want to be riding on the biggest stages and making the grade on them one day. There may be setbacks along the way as it’s a cut throat business over there but if they want to see how far they can go and really push their potential to the limit it’s got to be done. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Bagpuss

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, Najjer said:

He wasn’t dropped - he got injured in a non speedway related accident and returned back home, making him unavailable for selection until the latter part of the season.

And shouldn't have entered into it if he only had "loaned" equipment (if that was the case as I havent seen any confirmation saying as much)..

It's very intense in Poland, it means something financially to the teams and emotionally to a good proportion of the communities they serve..

Not to mention the brand awareness of the national companies that sponsor many of the teams and the TV rating requirements that justify the large outlay these TV companies make to generate the return on advertising..

It is 100% full on, no hiding places, no easier nights to make a few quid by guesting, no "there's always another match tomorrow somewhere"..

Darcy Ward was verbally abused by ZG fans when he signed for them such is the rivalry over there, and it was only after a fair few strong performances that the ZG fans came on board and accepted him..

Night and Day to over here, and very much akin to our Football leagues rather than the Speedway Leagues which dont carry any of the same pressure to win due to the lack of publicity, financial reward and status they have..

But if it comes good, what a career a young lad could have..

And there is only one way to find out..

Edited November 18, 2020 by mikebv

[IainB]

2 hours ago, Bagpuss said:

This is an interesting debate. Personally I think it boils down to what these young riders want to achieve from their careers.....based the the assumption that British speedway is reasonably unaffected by COVID then they can learn their trade in this country and probably end up earning decent money doubling up across our two leagues and emulating the likes of Cook, King, Wright, Worall and Harris. If they aspire to be more like Woffy & Lambert and want to give themselves the best chance to earn the big money in Poland as well as getting into GP, SWC and SEC then broadening their horizons now as teenagers and getting themselves known in Poland and learning the tracks etc is a must. Being an expert around Eastbourne, Edinburgh and Wolves is no good if you want to be riding on the biggest stages and making the grade on them one day. There may be setbacks along the way as it’s a cut throat business over there but if they want to see how far they can go and really push their potential to the limit it’s got to be done. 

Unless you are showing the kind of talent that Woffy & Lambert showed then the only way young British talent will make any progress in Poland is if they take out Polish citizenship imo

[cityrebel]

Why should any rider wait to see if British speedway runs next year. If the other European leagues can guarantee them an income, who can blame them for accepting their offers.

[tellboy]

4 hours ago, Bagpuss said:

This is an interesting debate. Personally I think it boils down to what these young riders want to achieve from their careers.....based the the assumption that British speedway is reasonably unaffected by COVID then they can learn their trade in this country and probably end up earning decent money doubling up across our two leagues and emulating the likes of Cook, King, Wright, Worall and Harris. If they aspire to be more like Woffy & Lambert and want to give themselves the best chance to earn the big money in Poland as well as getting into GP, SWC and SEC then broadening their horizons now as teenagers and getting themselves known in Poland and learning the tracks etc is a must. Being an expert around Eastbourne, Edinburgh and Wolves is no good if you want to be riding on the biggest stages and making the grade on them one day. There may be setbacks along the way as it’s a cut throat business over there but if they want to see how far they can go and really push their potential to the limit it’s got to be done. 

Problem i see Bagpuss is,will they be given the chance to learn the tracks etc in Poland.You have to be on it from the start or you are out.Unless it's different in their lower leagues.

To be fair to the riders mentioned they all gave Poland a go,bar Wright(Charles)although his brother rode several seasons.R.Worrall and Cook 1 or 2 each i think and were out.Harris and King done several seasons each but it didn't make them into better riders.

I hope i am wrong but could you see many of the youngsters being another Woffy,Lambert.Most riders now are good from an early age 15,16 yrs old and you know they can go onto bigger and better pay days.There's a few like Doyle who come through late(he incidentally doubled upin UK).I just hope they do get a fair crack of the whip and not thrown in the gutter after a couple of poor meetings.

[Najjer]

10 hours ago, iainb said:

Bewley was dropped after the signing of Chris Holder.

https://www.speedwaygp.com/news/article/8375/bewley-breaks-shoulder-blade-in

He was also effectively dropped in every match after one ride!

If you read the article, Bewley was still in the side at no.8. He only left the match day squad when he injured himself. When he was barely scoring a point it was hardly surprising to see Holder preferred to him in the line up order.

He shown what he was made of later in the season when he returned after his injury though and has earned himself another year at Wroclaw next year.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Najjer

[IainB]

9 hours ago, Najjer said:

If you read the article, Bewley was still in the side at no.8. He only left the match day squad when he injured himself. When he was barely scoring a point it was hardly surprising to see Holder preferred to him in the line up order.

He shown what he was made of later in the season when he returned after his injury though and has earned himself another year at Wroclaw next year.

Come on Najjer, I think your memory may be failing you, let's look at the facts, he started the season with Wroclaw rode in 3 matches scored 1 point from 7 rides, then he was dropped when they signed Chris Holder, came back for 2 matches at No 8 and didn't ride once. Dan then came back after his injury when Wroclaw were struggling for riders and scored 7 points from 5 rides. Then riding Woffy's machinery with Woffy's mechanics scored 20 points from 10 rides in the play offs, then I assume he went back to his own kit in the 3rd/4th play off where he didn't score from 2 rides.

He may well be signed by Wroclaw for next season but I can't see him getting a ride unless he dramatically improves, he had 26 races in total, trailing in at the back a mile off the pace in most of them, he'd be better off in Britain, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and taking in as many open meetings as possible anywhere he can at this stage in his career and that goes for the rest of young British talent imo rather than concentrating on Poland

Edited November 19, 2020 by iainb

[Najjer]

20 hours ago, iainb said:

 

He was also effectively dropped in every match after one ride!

10 minutes ago, iainb said:

Come on Najjer, I think your memory may be failing you, let's look at the facts, he started the season with Wroclaw rode in 3 matches scored 1 point from 7 rides, then he was dropped when they signed Chris Holder, came back for 2 matches at No 8 and didn't ride once. Dan then came back after his injury when Wroclaw were struggling for riders and scored 7 points from 5 rides. Then riding Woffy's machinery with Woffy's mechanics scored 20 points from 10 rides in the play offs, then I assumed he went back to his own kit in the 3rd/4th play off where he didn't score from 2 rides.

He may well be back at Wroclaw next season but I can't see him getting a ride unless he dramatically improves, he had 26 races in total, trailing in at the back a mile off the pace in most of them, he'd be better off in Britain, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and taking in as many open meetings as possible anywhere he can at this stage in his career and that goes for the rest of young British talent imo rather than concentrating on Poland

Whose memory is failing who here - because yesterday you quoted as saying he was dropped in every match after 1 ride and now today you’ve gone back on that when you’ve realised that was also factually incorrect. 

Dan actually had 25 rides in Poland last season - trailing in last in 11 of them. Basic maths tells me that is well under half so therefore most certainly isn’t “most of them” to quote you. Dan actually scored 27 points too, giving him using British calculations an average of 4.32. Not bad for someone completely off the pace!

Your memory is also mistaken you in that you’ve got the order of events muddled up. Dan’s last meetings of the season were the 3rd/4th play off where he scored 12+1 and then 8+2.

It is also very likely Dan will get rides next season as he will likely feature as the U24 rider in Wroclaw’s team or as a substitute at no.8. Dan undoubtedly has a lot to learn and a lot of improvement to make, and in a side with three top GP riders then I would say he’s in the best possible place to make that happen.

[IainB]

24 minutes ago, Najjer said:

Whose memory is failing who here - because yesterday you quoted as saying he was dropped in every match after 1 ride and now today you’ve gone back on that when you’ve realised that was also factually incorrect. 

Dan actually had 25 rides in Poland last season - trailing in last in 11 of them. Basic maths tells me that is well under half so therefore most certainly isn’t “most of them” to quote you. Dan actually scored 27 points too, giving him using British calculations an average of 4.32. Not bad for someone completely off the pace!

Your memory is also mistaken you in that you’ve got the order of events muddled up. Dan’s last meetings of the season were the 3rd/4th play off where he scored 12+1 and then 8+2.

It is also very likely Dan will get rides next season as he will likely feature as the U24 rider in Wroclaw’s team or as a substitute at no.8. Dan undoubtedly has a lot to learn and a lot of improvement to make, and in a side with three top GP riders then I would say he’s in the best possible place to make that happen.

Good response Najjer! Apologies, I stand corrected on some of your points, I remember some of Dan's 3rd places being in 3 rider only races, so lasts, a lot of this is just semantics though. Surely you can't deny that Dan was a "mile" off the pace in the early stages of the season, whether you accept that he was "dropped" or not he didn't get a ride between the 29th of June and the 14th of September. Moving the debate on a bit, Dan is currently the hottest young prospect we've got and he was completely outclassed except when he was riding on Woffy's kit with Woffy's mechanics, take off those 20 points and replace them with what his rolling CMA was and it tells a completely different story. The only way Dan will get rides next season is if he's scoring points, if not he'll get the same treatment he did this year

If you translate Dan's story to that being suggested as being the route to "success" for British youth, then realistically they'll have to muster up thousands of pounds to get their kit up to scratch and risk only having 7 rides in 2 and a half months, I know you'll say that Dan was injured during this time, but realistically he'd already been dropped. Imo British youth should steer clear of Polish clubs until they are of a sufficient standard to maintain a team place and concentrate on getting as many guaranteed rides as they can where ever that may be.

[mikebv]

2 hours ago, iainb said:

Good response Najjer! Apologies, I stand corrected on some of your points, I remember some of Dan's 3rd places being in 3 rider only races, so lasts, a lot of this is just semantics though. Surely you can't deny that Dan was a "mile" off the pace in the early stages of the season, whether you accept that he was "dropped" or not he didn't get a ride between the 29th of June and the 14th of September. Moving the debate on a bit, Dan is currently the hottest young prospect we've got and he was completely outclassed except when he was riding on Woffy's kit with Woffy's mechanics, take off those 20 points and replace them with what his rolling CMA was and it tells a completely different story. The only way Dan will get rides next season is if he's scoring points, if not he'll get the same treatment he did this year

If you translate Dan's story to that being suggested as being the route to "success" for British youth, then realistically they'll have to muster up thousands of pounds to get their kit up to scratch and risk only having 7 rides in 2 and a half months, I know you'll say that Dan was injured during this time, but realistically he'd already been dropped. Imo British youth should steer clear of Polish clubs until they are of a sufficient standard to maintain a team place and concentrate on getting as many guaranteed rides as they can where ever that may be.

I think last season could prove be the best, and most important, Dan has had so far in his career..

This is a 'kid' who has pretty much beaten all his peer group non stop from being under 16, with a good many 'scalps' of riders much older..

All of a sudden last season in Poland saw him riding loads of last places which would have been a huge shock to his system I would imagine...

As would Dan finding out the actual level of "Polish Speed" you need your bikes to have to be competitive over there (and therefore also on the 'World Stage')..

Wroclaw obviously see something in him to give him another go and hopefully next season he starts the way he finished the last..

Maybe in a few years time he will look back on last season as the one that truly opened his eyes to what is needed to be globally successful, and will be reaping the benefits of learning from it and will have raised his game on the back of it to the level needed...

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by mikebv