MORE POLISH LEAGUE INTERFERENCE

[Najjer]

27 minutes ago, iainb said:

Great... unless they're treated like Batch, Kurtz, KK and to a lesser extent Bewley

How was Kurtz, KK and even Bewley treated badly? They were all dropped for poor form.

Batchelor seems to have been treated badly at Rybnik, but even then was pretty poor himself on the few times he rode for them. He was then loaned out and was again dropped by Bydgoszcz because he was in poor form. No different treatment than you’d except from teams over here and in any other sport for that matter. Let’s not try and make this out to be something it’s not 

[mikebv]

38 minutes ago, iainb said:

Great... unless they're treated like Batch, Kurtz, KK and to a lesser extent Bewley

It's a tough, unforgiving environment, without any sentiment, of that there is no doubt..

And no doubt also one that has seen countless Polish lads getting the same treatment too..

As opposite as could be when you compare the comfort zone and safety net that often gets provided over here..

Have a bad meeting (or even one ride!) in Poland and you face getting dropped from the next match, have two and you face getting replaced permanently...

Have a bad meeting in the UK and not only are you pretty much bomb proof, but you could have a couple of guest bookings lined up already that week to let you forget that night, earn a few quid, and do it without any real pressure given its not your own team you are riding for...

'Proper Leagues' exist in Poland where fans and owners expect their team to perform in every race and are very quick to show both their displeasure or euphoria depending on the outcome...

Truly sink or swim...

A great experience for those good enough to 'swim', who will benefit for probably the whole of their careers from it..

And an eye opening experience for those who may find that they are not at the required level, and that beating their domestic peers regularly isn't a true barometer of what 'true' level they actually are at..

But also an experience that will clearly show how much they will need to improve to try again if they are resilient enough to do so..

Let's hope our lads benefit from the experience as it can only be good long term for UK Speedway to have a squad of performers who are all at the top level of the Sport..

Edited November 16, 2020 by mikebv

[tellboy]

14 hours ago, Najjer said:

Couldn’t agree more. That is now Dan Bewley, Anders Rowe, Drew Kemp, Jack Thomas, Tom Brennan and Leon Flint from the U21s this year, all with contracts in Poland for next year - plus obviously Robert Lambert and Tai Woffinden. That can only be good news for British Speedway even if they don’t feature in regular league matches.

Contracts mean nothing to the Poles,as seen in the past.

[tellboy]

17 minutes ago, mikebv said:

It's a tough, unforgiving environment, without any sentiment, of that there is no doubt..

And no doubt also one that has seen countless Polish lads getting the same treatment too..

As opposite as could be when you compare the comfort zone and safety net that often gets provided over here..

Have a bad meeting (or even one ride!) in Poland and you face getting dropped from the next match, have two and you face getting replaced permanently...

Have a bad meeting in the UK and not only are you pretty much bomb proof, but you could have a couple of guest bookings lined up already that week to let you forget that night, earn a few quid, and do it without any real pressure given its not your own team you are riding for...

'Proper Leagues' exist in Poland where fans and owners expect their team to perform in every race and are very quick to show both their displeasure or euphoria depending on the outcome...

Truly sink or swim...

A great experience for those good enough to 'swim', who will benefit for probably the whole of their careers from it..

And an eye opening experience for those who may find that they are not at the required level, and that beating their domestic peers regularly isn't a true barometer of what 'true' level they actually are at..

But also an experience that will clearly show how much they will need to improve to try again if they are resilient enough to do so..

Let's hope our lads benefit from the experience as it can only be good long term for UK Speedway to have a squad of performers who are all at the top level of the Sport..

I fail to see how that could be good for the development of our young British talent.It hasn't really helped some other riders from GB in the past.

[IainB]

1 hour ago, Najjer said:

How was Kurtz, KK and even Bewley treated badly? They were all dropped for poor form.

Batchelor seems to have been treated badly at Rybnik, but even then was pretty poor himself on the few times he rode for them. He was then loaned out and was again dropped by Bydgoszcz because he was in poor form. No different treatment than you’d except from teams over here and in any other sport for that matter. Let’s not try and make this out to be something it’s not 

1 ride, 1 last place, that's it no more rides... see you next week, same again a couple of times, see you at the end of the season when we're struggling for riders. That's no way to bring on British youth. In the UK you are guaranteed 3 rides in a match and it's very very rare that a rider wouldn't be given at least a month to prove themselves due to average restrictions

[IainB]

1 hour ago, mikebv said:

It's a tough, unforgiving environment, without any sentiment, of that there is no doubt..

And no doubt also one that has seen countless Polish lads getting the same treatment too..

As opposite as could be when you compare the comfort zone and safety net that often gets provided over here..

Have a bad meeting (or even one ride!) in Poland and you face getting dropped from the next match, have two and you face getting replaced permanently...

Have a bad meeting in the UK and not only are you pretty much bomb proof, but you could have a couple of guest bookings lined up already that week to let you forget that night, earn a few quid, and do it without any real pressure given its not your own team you are riding for...

'Proper Leagues' exist in Poland where fans and owners expect their team to perform in every race and are very quick to show both their displeasure or euphoria depending on the outcome...

Truly sink or swim...

A great experience for those good enough to 'swim', who will benefit for probably the whole of their careers from it..

And an eye opening experience for those who may find that they are not at the required level, and that beating their domestic peers regularly isn't a true barometer of what 'true' level they actually are at..

But also an experience that will clearly show how much they will need to improve to try again if they are resilient enough to do so..

Let's hope our lads benefit from the experience as it can only be good long term for UK Speedway to have a squad of performers who are all at the top level of the Sport..

Lee Richardson would never have made it if he'd been Polish, he was absolutely rubbish in his first couple of years riding Speedway, could hardly score a point, was persevered with in this country and went on to become an exceptional rider

[Mr. Clemens]

 

 

I would think that Polish speedway doesn't have the remotest interest in really developing any riders, to world class status, other than their own.

On the other hand they may well be totally dedicated to ensuring that international speedway continues to blossom and will work hand in glove with the FIM and all the other domestic speedway authorities to make sure individual and team world champions come from any involved country.

As they say time will tell.

 

 

 

 

[phillwhitewasmad]

2 hours ago, Mr. Clemens said:

 

 

I would think that Polish speedway doesn't have the remotest interest in really developing any riders, to world class status, other than their own.

On the other hand they may well be totally dedicated to ensuring that international speedway continues to blossom and will work hand in glove with the FIM and all the other domestic speedway authorities to make sure individual and team world champions come from any involved country.

As they say time will tell.

 

 

 

 

 

[mikebv]

The Russians in particular have benefited from the opportunities given to them by riding in the Polish leagues at a young age..

I am pretty sure if they had stayed exclusively riding in Russia they wouldn't be at the level several of them are today, with more U21 riders coming through following the same pathway.. 

Whether our lads are good enough to climb up through their leagues to the top level we will see, however just to have the chance to do so and prove yourself regularly against the best of your peers has to be a good thing...

Augment that with some team place 'protection' for them in the UK and we could truly have some mid to long term development plans for these lads..

[IainB]

57 minutes ago, mikebv said:

however just to have the chance to do so and prove yourself regularly against the best of your peers has to be a good thing...

This is exactly the point though, unless you are regularly scoring the points or Polish  you won't regularly be in the team

[Najjer]

54 minutes ago, iainb said:

This is exactly the point though, unless you are regularly scoring the points or Polish  you won't regularly be in the team

The huge difference is, Polish teams have training and practice throughout the week. They regularly ride against eachother and have more than enough chances to prove themselves there. There is no sentiment though if you simply aren’t good enough.

[IainB]

30 minutes ago, Najjer said:

The huge difference is, Polish teams have training and practice throughout the week. They regularly ride against eachother and have more than enough chances to prove themselves there. There is no sentiment though if you simply aren’t good enough.

We have training facilities in this country, I can always hear the bikes going round Leicester... even this summer. The point that has been raised here is that Poland will be good for the development our "youngest and best talent". The reality is they'll need to outlay thousands in equipment, totally commit themselves to putting Poland first and then not be given the opportunity to ride if they run a last place, they'd be far better off in the UK getting track time imo. It's only when they are nearing the top of the UK averages that they should even be thinking about Poland

Edited November 17, 2020 by iainb

[Najjer]

48 minutes ago, iainb said:

We have training facilities in this country, I can always hear the bikes going round Leicester... even this summer. The point that has been raised here is that Poland will be good for the development our "youngest and best talent". The reality is they'll need to outlay thousands in equipment, totally commit themselves to putting Poland first and then not be given the opportunity to ride if they run a last place, they'd be far better off in the UK getting track time imo. It's only when they are nearing the top of the UK averages that they should even be thinking about Poland

You are so wrong in my view. Having the odd spin on your own at Leicester is alright for blowing away the cobwebs or the odd training school with Wayne Carter at Scunthorpe but that isn’t going to turn you into a quality rider. Diving in feet first in Poland where you are coached by a large group of knowledgable and experienced people, with quality riders, learning all about set ups and the fastest tracks will however give you every chance of becoming quality - not to mention additional invaluable experience. Sticking to the comforts of their current surroundings over here will just result in them turning into a Josh Auty or Lewis Bridger.

Anders Rowe has been taken on under Leszno’s wings, Jack Thomas and Tom Brennan at Łódź with Adam Skornicki’s guidance, Drew Kemp at Gdansk a team with huge ambition, that’s before even mentioning Dan Bewley at Wroclaw who we saw benefitted huge at the end of this season with Tai Woffinden in his corner.

Its a massive opportunity for these riders and fair shout to them for taking the leap. It’s down to them now to make the most of it.

[phillwhitewasmad]

52 minutes ago, iainb said:

We have training facilities in this country, I can always hear the bikes going round Leicester... even this summer. The point that has been raised here is that Poland will be good for the development our "youngest and best talent". The reality is they'll need to outlay thousands in equipment, totally commit themselves to putting Poland first and then not be given the opportunity to ride if they run a last place, they'd be far better off in the UK getting track time imo. It's only when they are nearing the top of the UK averages that they should even be thinking about Poland

thing is Poland will run regardless of covid next year but will we in the uk. if I was there age and only definite chance to race (if picked) was Poland thats where i would go. these lads cant hang around on a maybe . if they dont get competitive track time they will stagnate which again is no good for them or the sport here,

 

[secsy1]

37 minutes ago, Najjer said:

You are so wrong in my view. Having the odd spin on your own at Leicester is alright for blowing away the cobwebs or the odd training school with Wayne Carter at Scunthorpe but that isn’t going to turn you into a quality rider. Diving in feet first in Poland where you are coached by a large group of knowledgable and experienced people, with quality riders, learning all about set ups and the fastest tracks will however give you every chance of becoming quality - not to mention additional invaluable experience. Sticking to the comforts of their current surroundings over here will just result in them turning into a Josh Auty or Lewis Bridger.

Anders Rowe has been taken on under Leszno’s wings, Jack Thomas and Tom Brennan at Łódź with Adam Skornicki’s guidance, Drew Kemp at Gdansk a team with huge ambition, that’s before even mentioning Dan Bewley at Wroclaw who we saw benefitted huge at the end of this season with Tai Woffinden in his corner.

Its a massive opportunity for these riders and fair shout to them for taking the leap. It’s down to them now to make the most of it.

Jumping at the opportunity to ride anywhere abroad is commendable and the riders must have a high degree of talent to be offered places/contracts. Personally I wish them every success.

Some riders are quite content with riding in the UK and have no desire to take the opportunities offered abroad.  

But at the bottom end of the scale, they have to start somewhere and learn. Some riders have progressed to higher levels by blowing cobwebs away at Leicester and attending odd training schools, so please don't knock these as riders do benefit from them.

[tellboy]

22 minutes ago, Najjer said:

You are so wrong in my view. Having the odd spin on your own at Leicester is alright for blowing away the cobwebs or the odd training school with Wayne Carter at Scunthorpe but that isn’t going to turn you into a quality rider. Diving in feet first in Poland where you are coached by a large group of knowledgable and experienced people, with quality riders, learning all about set ups and the fastest tracks will however give you every chance of becoming quality - not to mention additional invaluable experience. Sticking to the comforts of their current surroundings over here will just result in them turning into a Josh Auty or Lewis Bridger.

Anders Rowe has been taken on under Leszno’s wings, Jack Thomas and Tom Brennan at Łódź with Adam Skornicki’s guidance, Drew Kemp at Gdansk a team with huge ambition, that’s before even mentioning Dan Bewley at Wroclaw who we saw benefitted huge at the end of this season with Tai Woffinden in his corner.

Its a massive opportunity for these riders and fair shout to them for taking the leap. It’s down to them now to make the most of it.

Both Josh and Lewis gave it a go in Poland.Bridger actually not doing too bad.Gave it a go when just turning 19 and had 7 seasons,although only doing 2 fullish seasons out of the 7.

Auty on the other hand managed 2 matches one in 2008 and one in 2011.

So they didn't stick to the comforts of their home surroundings they gave it a go and Poland didn't make them go forward.

Same with B.Barker he went to Poland aged 19 and his teams managed to give  him 1,4,6,1 matches in 4 consecutive years.So that didn't benefit him and push him forward.

Richie Worrall another.

Just because Poland is undoubtedly is the best league,it doesn't mean it will benefit our young riders by going over there.They will be dropped like a stone like the riders mentioned above if the don't perform.

No British rider has gone their recently and basically learnt their trade.Woffy was already good,we knew Lambert was going places,he was helped by early learning in Germany,yep Germany not Poland gave Lambert the racing experience to push forward.

I just hope the teams give our youngsters matches even if they start off slowly,but i can't see that,can you?You only have to see how many riders are used during the season in the lower leagues in Poland.You think teams are bad here when they use 9 or 10 riders through the season they are quite often near the mid teens.

 

[Najjer]

1 hour ago, secsy1 said:

Jumping at the opportunity to ride anywhere abroad is commendable and the riders must have a high degree of talent to be offered places/contracts. Personally I wish them every success.

Some riders are quite content with riding in the UK and have no desire to take the opportunities offered abroad.  

But at the bottom end of the scale, they have to start somewhere and learn. Some riders have progressed to higher levels by blowing cobwebs away at Leicester and attending odd training schools, so please don't knock these as riders do benefit from them.

I’m certainly not knocking them in the slightest - I am praising them for expanding their tuition even further. To continue their training schools in this country combined with abroad in Poland can only be of benefit in my opinion.

[mikebv]

4 hours ago, Najjer said:

You are so wrong in my view. Having the odd spin on your own at Leicester is alright for blowing away the cobwebs or the odd training school with Wayne Carter at Scunthorpe but that isn’t going to turn you into a quality rider. Diving in feet first in Poland where you are coached by a large group of knowledgable and experienced people, with quality riders, learning all about set ups and the fastest tracks will however give you every chance of becoming quality - not to mention additional invaluable experience. Sticking to the comforts of their current surroundings over here will just result in them turning into a Josh Auty or Lewis Bridger.

Anders Rowe has been taken on under Leszno’s wings, Jack Thomas and Tom Brennan at Łódź with Adam Skornicki’s guidance, Drew Kemp at Gdansk a team with huge ambition, that’s before even mentioning Dan Bewley at Wroclaw who we saw benefitted huge at the end of this season with Tai Woffinden in his corner.

Its a massive opportunity for these riders and fair shout to them for taking the leap. It’s down to them now to make the most of it.

Spot on...

As I've said the Russians took the same route and now more are joining each year (some even with Polish blood coursing through their veins seemingly)

Beating the same riders week in week out wont give you any sense of where you are globally versus your age group peers (who will be your rivals potentially for years to come), and wont improve you as a rider..

Riding in Poland will do both, or at least make it clear you are not at the required level yet, (or maybe even never)..

Give these lads the safety net of plenty of rides over here and cover them with guests if needed when Poland calls (it's not as if you can devalue the UK Leagues too much anyway by doing so such is their already contrived operating model), and when they are overseas it gives other lads a chance to take their place over here...

Many have been the "next great white hope" who at 18/19 become heat leaders in the top leagues, riding around small home technical tracks, who then go on to pretty much nothing on the World stage.. 

Let's see if 'something different' works and hope that the days of ten or so genuine World Class riders once again return wearing the GB colours..

Not one single club team out there winning any league will grow the sport nationally in this country one iota, therefore let's put the eggs in the basket of the national team and see if that will..

It worked in the 70's for Speedway and it worked for both Rugby Union and Cricket when they finally realised that a successful national team is the only way to attract more national coverage, more domestic fans off the back of it, and probably most importantly, more sponsors..

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by mikebv

[phillwhitewasmad]

3 hours ago, mikebv said:

Spot on...

As I've said the Russians took the same route and now more are joining each year (some even with Polish blood coursing through their veins seemingly)

Beating the same riders week in week out wont give you any sense of where you are globally versus your age group peers (who will be your rivals potentially for years to come), and wont improve you as a rider..

Riding in Poland will do both, or at least make it clear you are not at the required level yet, (or maybe even never)..

Give these lads the safety net of plenty of rides over here and cover them with guests if needed when Poland calls (it's not as if you can devalue the UK Leagues too much anyway by doing so such is their already contrived operating model), and when they are overseas it gives other lads a chance to take their place over here...

Many have been the "next great white hope" who at 18/19 become heat leaders in the top leagues, riding around small home technical tracks, who then go on to pretty much nothing on the World stage.. 

Let's see if 'something different' works and hope that the days of ten or so genuine World Class riders once again return wearing the GB colours..

Not one single club team out there winning any league will grow the sport nationally in this country one iota, therefore let's put the eggs in the basket of the national team and see if that will..

It worked in the 70's for Speedway and it worked for both Rugby Union and Cricket when they finally realised that a successful national team is the only way to attract more national coverage, more domestic fans off the back of it, and probably most importantly, more sponsors..

 

We have said this even at junior level. My lad has benefited massively on the 125cc by racing in Poland ,Czech, Germany ,holland and Belgium over the last few years . The level was a grade above ours but showed us where we needed to be. Having watched a 250 meeting in Germany again it showed where we can improve. Due to the restrictions this year been unable to compete abroad on the 250 but we have had several conversations with Neil Vatcher about getting into Europe as often as possible as a group or individuals. As you say riding against the same riders every week gives a false impression of where you are. 
 

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, phillwhitewasmad said:

We have said this even at junior level. My lad has benefited massively on the 125cc by racing in Poland ,Czech, Germany ,holland and Belgium over the last few years . The level was a grade above ours but showed us where we needed to be. Having watched a 250 meeting in Germany again it showed where we can improve. Due to the restrictions this year been unable to compete abroad on the 250 but we have had several conversations with Neil Vatcher about getting into Europe as often as possible as a group or individuals. As you say riding against the same riders every week gives a false impression of where you are. 
 

Several riders have been mentioned as examples of riders who failed to get a 'fair crack of the whip', at a young age in Poland, however those mentioned have hardly gone on to have, (no disrespect) 'stellar global careers' have they? 

So maybe those who ran the teams they rode for in Poland didn't see enough to warrant their relationship to continue and ultimately got proved correct..?

Robert Lambert is for me the obvious example of a lad who benefited enormously from riding competitive meetings abroad when he wasn't allowed to do the same over here, and more than held his own. And beating those at the time who he will race against many times over the next few years at such a tender age must have been a huge confidence boost to take forward..

Best wishes to you and your lad and maybe his level will hit a ceiling that he can't go above, or maybe his level will smash ceiling after ceiling and he goes on to the very top..

At least you and he won't ever wonder what might have been if only you had taken him out of his comfort zone, just like the lads with Polish contracts will find about themselves next year..

Hope it all goes well for him...

Edited November 17, 2020 by mikebv