norbold Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 Norwich won the National Trophy in 1955 and 1963. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 8 hours ago, steve roberts said: I's agree that Rickardsson is up there with the best of them but I always questioned his team ethic and leadership qualities which is something I always base any assessment (rightly or wrongly) on who was the best etc. I tend to look beyond just World Championship honours although obviously important within the grand scheme of things. The likes of Mauger, Olsen, Nielsen etc developed a team around them and nurtured their potential and Ronnie Moore was probably regarded as the best team rider during any era and some regarded him as being the most naturally gifted rider of his generation. Maybe. But it is comparing apples and pears. Different times, different priorities. Had there been year long GP series and bigger bucks to be earned in Poland and Sweden back in the 70s, I think Exeter and Hull fans would have been seeing a very different Ivan Mauger, if they would have even seen him at all. He was great presence for all his clubs. But he was also very well paid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 52 minutes ago, falcace said: Maybe. But it is comparing apples and pears. Different times, different priorities. Had there been year long GP series and bigger bucks to be earned in Poland and Sweden back in the 70s, I think Exeter and Hull fans would have been seeing a very different Ivan Mauger, if they would have even seen him at all. He was great presence for all his clubs. But he was also very well paid. That's always the issue of course comparing riders from different eras...different criteria, bikes, tracks and it's very difficult attempting to pass judgement but fun all the same! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 53 minutes ago, falcace said: I think Exeter and Hull fans would have been seeing a very different Ivan Mauger, if they would have even seen him at all. He was great presence for all his clubs. But he was also very well paid. We both know that there are a number of people on the BSF who won't agree with that - or don't WANT to believe that... When I look back at some of the attitudes in years gone by, it's amazing how many people thought that world speedway should revolve around Britain, and British speedway. Now we are only a minor player on the world scene (largely self-inflicted, but not totally), there is a lot of resentment towards others - which is totally unwarranted. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, steve roberts said: That's always the issue of course comparing riders from different eras...different criteria, bikes, tracks and it's very difficult attempting to pass judgement but fun all the same! Of course, and as long as you have a balanced and realistic view, there's nowt wrong wi' it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 1 hour ago, chunky said: Of course, and as long as you have a balanced and realistic view, there's nowt wrong wi' it... ...and that's always the dilemma with many of these things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, chunky said: Of course, and as long as you have a balanced and realistic view, there's nowt wrong wi' it... Peter Craven was the wizard of balance, does that mean he was the greatest? Edited October 6, 2020 by norbold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 7 minutes ago, norbold said: Peter Craven was the wizard of balance, does that mean he was the greatest? You are obviously UNbalanced!!! Tom Farndon was the greatest! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted October 6, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 (edited) I do think when you are a supporter of a certain rider you could be blinkered , most of us are very guilty of that myself included more than anyone. My point is Falcace gave us all a great post he said some of us would consider, Rickardsson,Crump, Pedersen, Hancock in the top fifteen riders of all time.Myself personally only Ricko, Crump, would be considered in a top 10 after that all up to conjecture not that they were not good anough but over a test of time there are loads of great riders to consider. Edited October 6, 2020 by Sidney the robin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Sidney the robin said: I do think when you are a supporter of a certain rider you could be blinkered , most of us are very guilty of that myself included more than anyone. Exactly. I consider Barry Thomas to be the greatest rider ever Tony Rickardsson would be number 1 for me for two reasons. He was a whisker away from winning 5 consecutive world titles, (ok technically he finished 3rd in 2000, but does anybody honestly believe that he wouldn't have won the final if Mark Loram hadn't got the second place he needed in the consolation final?) Secondly for his astonishing performance in the 2005 series. 6 wins, one 2nd and a 3rd from 9 rounds. In league racing however, it's got to be Hans Nielsen. He was just a points machine! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 7 hours ago, steve roberts said: That's always the issue of course comparing riders from different eras...different criteria, bikes, tracks and it's very difficult attempting to pass judgement but fun all the same! It is fun of course and I love doing it as much as anyone, but it really is an impossible job. The more time goes on the more older greats are forgotten. What the "greatest" really means for most people is the greatest you have experience of. How many these days would put Vic Huxley or Frank Arthur in their top 10? In fact, the only pre-War rider who even gets a mention these days is Tom Farndon and that's only me (and chunky!) What about Bluey Wilkinson, Eric Langton, the Milne Brothers, Lionel Van Praag and so on and so on? There is no-one around now who has any real knowledge of them at their peak, so no-one can really compare them. It's only with Jack Young and the Big Five we begin to get actual memories and, over time, those memories will fade too. "The Greatest" is a movable feast. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparks123 Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 42 minutes ago, Terry said: Exactly. I consider Barry Thomas to be the greatest rider ever Tony Rickardsson would be number 1 for me for two reasons. He was a whisker away from winning 5 consecutive world titles, (ok technically he finished 3rd in 2000, but does anybody honestly believe that he wouldn't have won the final if Mark Loram hadn't got the second place he needed in the consolation final?) Secondly for his astonishing performance in the 2005 series. 6 wins, one 2nd and a 3rd from 9 rounds. In league racing however, it's got to be Hans Nielsen. He was just a points machine! Tony would have won the 2000 World Championship (I think) if it wasn't for 2 crashes. Final starts at 1.00.00 with Mark Loram. Heat 19 starts at 20.00 with Danno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 14 minutes ago, sparks123 said: Tony would have won the 2000 World Championship (I think) if it wasn't for 2 crashes. Final starts at 1.00.00 with Mark Loram. Heat 19 starts at 20.00 with Danno. That was a terrible decision to exclude Tony in Sweden after Mark clearly knocked him off.(I would add that that I don't believe it was deliberate, as Mark wasn't that kind of rider. He just misjudged the pass.) The second incident with Stefan Danno I believe could have gone either way. Rickardsson did seem out of control when Sullivan passed him and Danno did keep to his line. Loram admitted he was a bit lucky that year, with Tony a little below his brilliant best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 Just now, Terry said: That was a terrible decision to exclude Tony in Sweden after Mark clearly knocked him off.(I would add that that I don't believe it was deliberate, as Mark wasn't that kind of rider. He just misjudged the pass.) Of course it wasn't deliberate, but that was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen. The problem is that there are always so many "ifs", but sadly, "ifs" never make it into the history books... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 33 minutes ago, norbold said: It is fun of course and I love doing it as much as anyone, but it really is an impossible job. The more time goes on the more older greats are forgotten. What the "greatest" really means for most people is the greatest you have experience of. How many these days would put Vic Huxley or Frank Arthur in their top 10? Actually (not that this would surprise you), but Huxley is one I always include in my list of "elite" riders, along with Vic Duggan... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted October 6, 2020 Report Share Posted October 6, 2020 8 minutes ago, chunky said: Actually (not that this would surprise you), but Huxley is one I always include in my list of "elite" riders, along with Vic Duggan... Well, you did get an honourable mention in my little diatribe above... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 7, 2020 Report Share Posted October 7, 2020 8 hours ago, norbold said: Well, you did get an honourable mention in my little diatribe above... For me the subject has been done to death on numerous threads, which is why I couldn’t be bothered to go over it all again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest compost Posted October 7, 2020 Report Share Posted October 7, 2020 9 hours ago, norbold said: It is fun of course and I love doing it as much as anyone, but it really is an impossible job. The more time goes on the more older greats are forgotten. What the "greatest" really means for most people is the greatest you have experience of. How many these days would put Vic Huxley or Frank Arthur in their top 10? In fact, the only pre-War rider who even gets a mention these days is Tom Farndon and that's only me (and chunky!) What about Bluey Wilkinson, Eric Langton, the Milne Brothers, Lionel Van Praag and so on and so on? There is no-one around now who has any real knowledge of them at their peak, so no-one can really compare them. It's only with Jack Young and the Big Five we begin to get actual memories and, over time, those memories will fade too. "The Greatest" is a movable feast. I'll always shout for Jack Parker, who I regard as the greatest Speedway rider of all time. He may not have an official World title (2 unofficial ones of course) but he is the only rider I know of who was at the top of his game against 2 (possibly 3) sets of top riders from different era's. He beat the top pre-war riders (Huxley, Lamaroux, Van Praag, Milne brothers, Langton, Varey etc) but also beat the top early post war greats such as Duggan, Price, Williams, Biggs and youngsters Briggs, Young and Moore. As far as I can recall no other rider has managed to be so consistent for so long (not even Mauger) and had he not been so seriously injured in midget car practice he could have gone on for a couple more years at the top (he was on an 8 point plus the season before his accident). Just MHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted October 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, chunky said: Actually (not that this would surprise you), but Huxley is one I always include in my list of "elite" riders, along with Vic Duggan... Definitely Duggan Chunky, the speedway public were robbed of seeing just how good Farndon and Craven really were a crying shame .Jack Young and Ronnie Moore for me would also be in a top 20 riders ever in history. Edited October 7, 2020 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted October 7, 2020 Report Share Posted October 7, 2020 Just out of interest, after mentioning Peter Jackson's averages on another thread, I thought I'd just take a look at who topped the averages in the pre-War years (1933-1939). 1933: Jack Parker 10.33, 1934: Vic Huxley: 10.31, 1935: Bluey Wilkinson 10.57, 1936: Jack Parker 10.27, 1937: Jack Milne 11.09, 1938: Jack Milne 10.96, 1939: Cordy Milne 11.50 (The 1939 season was unfinished of course). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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