Mark Posted September 19, 2020 Report Share Posted September 19, 2020 (edited) There has been lots of discussion about Madsen getting away with a flyer last night. He should have been excluded but instead got 3 points. The referee made a mistake but we are all human and all make mistakes. Under the current rules there are two ways to solve this. First is retrospective exclusion. If on replay a rider is found to have jumped to gain an advantage he then gets excluded with his points removed from the heat. The rider is treated as a non participant. Using Madsen's race in Prague as an example the rider finishing 2nd then gets promoted to win the race receiving 3 points. Madsen gets 0. Or have an assistant referee who can immediately watch a replay of the start of every race. Even using basic Sky Plus would allow an assistant ref to view the start and press the red button to stop a heat within 10 seconds. I'm not bothered if riders get to bend 3 before a race is stopped for the right reasons. Edited September 19, 2020 by Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacksaw Jim Duggan Posted September 19, 2020 Report Share Posted September 19, 2020 Just leave and if a rider gets it I’d what it is. its refs being pricks they want to cheat riders and hate being made to look daft its inconsistent because it’s bollocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted September 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2020 4 hours ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said: Just leave and if a rider gets it I’d what it is. its refs being pricks they want to cheat riders and hate being made to look daft its inconsistent because it’s bollocks Can anyone translate Hacksaw has had a good evening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted September 20, 2020 Report Share Posted September 20, 2020 21 hours ago, Mark said: There has been lots of discussion about Madsen getting away with a flyer last night. He should have been excluded but instead got 3 points. The referee made a mistake but we are all human and all make mistakes. Under the current rules there are two ways to solve this. First is retrospective exclusion. If on replay a rider is found to have jumped to gain an advantage he then gets excluded with his points removed from the heat. The rider is treated as a non participant. Using Madsen's race in Prague as an example the rider finishing 2nd then gets promoted to win the race receiving 3 points. Madsen gets 0. Or have an assistant referee who can immediately watch a replay of the start of every race. Even using basic Sky Plus would allow an assistant ref to view the start and press the red button to stop a heat within 10 seconds. I'm not bothered if riders get to bend 3 before a race is stopped for the right reasons. Or speedway could take the step into the 21st century and use electronic aids (transponders) to determine jump starts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 20, 2020 Report Share Posted September 20, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ghostwalker said: Or speedway could take the step into the 21st century and use electronic aids (transponders) to determine jump starts. I am fairly certain that transponders have been used at oval car racing meetings for some years now. I agree Ghostwalker - perhaps indeed it is time for speedway to also consider their use? Edited September 20, 2020 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted September 20, 2020 Report Share Posted September 20, 2020 6 hours ago, Mark said: Can anyone translate Hacksaw has had a good evening. Those pesky Wine Gums... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted September 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2020 5 hours ago, Ghostwalker said: Or speedway could take the step into the 21st century and use electronic aids (transponders) to determine jump starts. Agreed Ghost but my two ideas are cheap and easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
False dawn Posted September 20, 2020 Report Share Posted September 20, 2020 6 hours ago, Ghostwalker said: Or speedway could take the step into the 21st century and use electronic aids (transponders) to determine jump starts. I think this has been done to death before but can I ask (sorry if it's repeat) a question regarding transponders? All bikes at the GPs are fitted with transponders, which measure lap times and race times to a thousandth of a second. Can these same devices be used to measure start time response times? Thus, as in athetics, we could have a scientific measure of starts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted September 20, 2020 Report Share Posted September 20, 2020 8 hours ago, False dawn said: I think this has been done to death before but can I ask (sorry if it's repeat) a question regarding transponders? All bikes at the GPs are fitted with transponders, which measure lap times and race times to a thousandth of a second. Can these same devices be used to measure start time response times? Thus, as in athetics, we could have a scientific measure of starts. Think it would be possible without too much effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFCB Wildcat Posted September 20, 2020 Report Share Posted September 20, 2020 Having in the past seen my football team fall foul of so many poor refereeing or linesman decisions after watching the replays on M.O.TD I was always in favour of technology to eliminate injustices. However after witnessing the farce of VAR completely ruining the Premier League in my opinion, I would be against using it in Speedway. It's easy to watch the slow Mo's in retrospect and criticise the referee who has to make a split second call on if it's a perfect start or a jump but I'd rather live with the odd mistake being made than go down the technology route to be honest. We enjoyed Speedway's best years without it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
False dawn Posted September 20, 2020 Report Share Posted September 20, 2020 10 hours ago, False dawn said: All bikes at the GPs are fitted with transponders, which measure lap times and race times to a thousandth of a second. A slightly nerdy aside..... We were reminded on Saturday that the FIM rules don't allow dead heats. If two riders finish on the exact same time, to 3 decimal places, is the ref expected to judge the relative finishing positions to a greater degree of accuracy? Not sure what distance a thousandth of second represents, but it can't be much more than a fag paper! These refs can't be blind after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted September 21, 2020 Report Share Posted September 21, 2020 Or we could just have the radical idea of you're only exclude if you touch the tapes?!? Speedway doesn't & has no real need for transponder technology. With regards to Madsen, he just has exceptional gating ability. What needs to be worked on is the slack in the tapes. Noticed many times that riders were accused of jumping when in fact the outside of the tapes are released. Theres a split second where the centre of the tapes are still in a stationery position & if you're on gate 2 or 3 & make a perfect start it looks far worse than on gate 1 & 4. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted September 21, 2020 Report Share Posted September 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Daniel Smith said: Or we could just have the radical idea of you're only exclude if you touch the tapes?!? Speedway doesn't & has no real need for transponder technology. With regards to Madsen, he just has exceptional gating ability. What needs to be worked on is the slack in the tapes. Noticed many times that riders were accused of jumping when in fact the outside of the tapes are released. Theres a split second where the centre of the tapes are still in a stationery position & if you're on gate 2 or 3 & make a perfect start it looks far worse than on gate 1 & 4. It's ridiculous that speedway is reliant on such ancient and inconsistent mechanisms. You could have a laser start gate that switches off when the race starts, but could detect false starts. It would also make it much harder to anticipate the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted September 21, 2020 Report Share Posted September 21, 2020 5 hours ago, False dawn said: A slightly nerdy aside..... We were reminded on Saturday that the FIM rules don't allow dead heats. If two riders finish on the exact same time, to 3 decimal places, is the ref expected to judge the relative finishing positions to a greater degree of accuracy? Not sure what distance a thousandth of second represents, but it can't be much more than a fag paper! These refs can't be blind after all. The fairest thing would be to give the higher place to the lower ranked rider - whether based on the championship standings from the previous season, or the intermediate classification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted September 21, 2020 Report Share Posted September 21, 2020 4 hours ago, Daniel Smith said: Or we could just have the radical idea of you're only exclude if you touch the tapes?!? Speedway doesn't & has no real need for transponder technology. With regards to Madsen, he just has exceptional gating ability. What needs to be worked on is the slack in the tapes. Noticed many times that riders were accused of jumping when in fact the outside of the tapes are released. Theres a split second where the centre of the tapes are still in a stationery position & if you're on gate 2 or 3 & make a perfect start it looks far worse than on gate 1 & 4. It’s very noticeable in slow -mo,regarding slack in tapes so is he really jumping the start at times,as Saturday proved when he done a perfect start and was brought back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcatdiary Posted September 21, 2020 Report Share Posted September 21, 2020 6 hours ago, Daniel Smith said: Or we could just have the radical idea of you're only exclude if you touch the tapes?!? Speedway doesn't & has no real need for transponder technology. With regards to Madsen, he just has exceptional gating ability. What needs to be worked on is the slack in the tapes. Noticed many times that riders were accused of jumping when in fact the outside of the tapes are released. Theres a split second where the centre of the tapes are still in a stationery position & if you're on gate 2 or 3 & make a perfect start it looks far worse than on gate 1 & 4. Question - If Madsen is such an exceptional gater (no argument from me) why does he continually jump the starts. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted September 21, 2020 Report Share Posted September 21, 2020 8 hours ago, False dawn said: A slightly nerdy aside..... We were reminded on Saturday that the FIM rules don't allow dead heats. If two riders finish on the exact same time, to 3 decimal places, is the ref expected to judge the relative finishing positions to a greater degree of accuracy? Not sure what distance a thousandth of second represents, but it can't be much more than a fag paper! These refs can't be blind after all. Don't forget it's only Nigel Pearson saying this... Do we know that this is still actually the case now transponders have been brought in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiveusaB Posted September 21, 2020 Report Share Posted September 21, 2020 Allow movement at the start, just like the good old days....adds to the tension and also give a 'lesser' abled rider the chance to make the gate and adds to the excitement when the faster rider has to chase him down..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Blue Posted September 21, 2020 Report Share Posted September 21, 2020 I must admit I'm in the if you haven't touched the tapes then let it go camp. If you don't have the technology to check for jump starts and 99% of tracks don't then one Refs perspective of who's gone too early will differ from the next. Some riders seem to be able to predict when the tapes will go up better than others and sometimes they will demolish them when exclusion is the punishment they will get and deservedly so. If the sport had something like the motor x barrier system I've seen elsewhere they certainly wouldn't be trying to get a flyer and risk getting seriously injured. I think the powers that be just need to make their minds up on a system or a ruling to sort it out once and for all! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted September 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Super Blue said: I must admit I'm in the if you haven't touched the tapes then let it go camp. If you don't have the technology to check for jump starts and 99% of tracks don't then one Refs perspective of who's gone too early will differ from the next. Some riders seem to be able to predict when the tapes will go up better than others and sometimes they will demolish them when exclusion is the punishment they will get and deservedly so. If the sport had something like the motor x barrier system I've seen elsewhere they certainly wouldn't be trying to get a flyer and risk getting seriously injured. I think the powers that be just need to make their minds up on a system or a ruling to sort it out once and for all! Agree that the rule should be exclusion if the tapes are touched. Simple isn't it. How would you move the barrier within 15 seconds to avoid a pile up on lap 2 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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