U-21 FINAL: BERWICK, Wednesday, October 21st

[cinderfella]

34 minutes ago, jenga said:

very few riders just burst onto the speedway scene and become world class and then stay at that level for prob the remainder of their time in the sport . the majority of riders get their style ( a way of riding that suits them ) and that gives them confidence . then the speed comes with it . 

i will be happy to shoot you down when this happens   . he is still a kid and has the backing to be a good servant to the sport .

steve lawson loved to see 3 riders away from the tapes before setting off, cannot remember how his career went . hope it went well !

in the H18TORY season @ worky, Kyle beat some quality riders and @ worky was really starting to up his game  .. 

Kyle IS a world champion , did you know that ?

Having seen Kyle put in some great rides with Glasgow I know what he is capable of but perhaps the one thing that is affecting him is the passing of his grandfather who helped him so much. 

 

[Normski]

3 hours ago, Fromafar said:

Berwick is not narrow ,don’t know what you are watching.It’s fast and the racing line is quite far out.They widen the straits by a metre and opened up the entrance to the bends before the start of this season.

Narrow seems to be the word of the day. Track is not narrow as a lot of work was carried out on it, thanks to Berwick Rangers agreeing to the widening of it.

[martinmauger]

3 hours ago, woodenspoon said:

The problem for Berwick speedway seems to be a track around a football pitch, which tends to make for narrow straights and  entrances and exits on corners. I believe Hull had the same problem, and when Odsal ran its first meeting in 1946, no rider managed to get around the first turn, and they had to make quick alterations.

Unfortunately most tracks are forced to make a track that fits the existing stadium, rather than having the luxury of a blank canvas to work on.

Self-proclaimed track anorak here.  While, I believe 1948 / 49 Hedon was similar to Sheffield, the Boulevard straights, according to the annuls of speedway foklore and seemingly which tape measure was used , were 24ft/ 7.3m or 25ft / 7.6m, with seriously wide bends, albeit with entries & exits a tad on the narrow side.  The track was widneded slightly  on Ivan's arrival (and on his insistance) in the of winter 1977. Craven Park was a better shape overall the straights were, as confimed & measured by my good self ( told you I'm a track anorak), 28ft / 8.5m with bends around twice that.  Short on room around footie / rugby pitches, twas ever the case one does what one can but I can confirm Berwick looks wider since last time I was there or saw the track on 'the box'....

Edited October 22, 2020 by martinmauger
more corrected crucial track anorakness

[mikebv]

2 hours ago, moomin man 76 said:

Not a problem - I am happy to be proven wrong, but since currently Kyle Bickley hasn't progressed beyond heat leader at NDL level and reserve at Championship level, I doubt he is likely to progress much beyond high end Championship level.

I actually think the same but it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing would it?

It sometimes appears that any kid who looks remotely decent at 16 or 17 has to be the next 'wunderkind' and we already crown him as a future world champion..

I was lucky enough to watch Joe Screen every week in his first season in the top league as a (literally), fresh out of school 16 year old, and he rode well against, and actually beat, some of the biggest names and best riders in the world that season, (who all rode over here at the time)..

Joe was a truly unique talent yet never went on to win a senior World individual title and spent most of his career at solid heat leader level in a very tough league, and a few years in the Worlds top ten..

No disrespect to the likes of Kyle Bickley and his peers, but they are light years away from the likes of Joe, Mark Loram, Woffy etc at a similar age, and they ride in a much watered down standard from the one those lads mentioned found too..

If Kyle, (and others) "only" achieve Champioship heat leader, (and therefore second string in the Premiership), status, then that is still a decent level to be at and hopefully they can make a reasonable living out of it..

Many talented riders have burst onto the scene over the years and have never made it to heat leader level in the top league, never mind world class level.. 

And there's no crime in that given how rarefied the atmosphere is at that level..

Let's  just let these lads progress and see where they end up. As having four of them in every top team, even at second string or reserve, can't be a bad thing for the sport overall over here..

[moomin man 76]

1 hour ago, jenga said:

very few riders just burst onto the speedway scene and become world class and then stay at that level for prob the remainder of their time in the sport . the majority of riders get their style ( a way of riding that suits them ) and that gives them confidence . then the speed comes with it . 

i will be happy to shoot you down when this happens   . he is still a kid and has the backing to be a good servant to the sport .

steve lawson loved to see 3 riders away from the tapes before setting off, cannot remember how his career went . hope it went well !

in the H18TORY season @ worky, Kyle beat some quality riders and @ worky was really starting to up his game  .. 

Kyle IS a world champion , did you know that ?

Yes I do know that Kyle won a World Championship as a child; however, in the cold heart life of day, I also know that his official averages for 2018 and 2019 Championship seasons were as follows;

2018: Home - 2.49; Away 1.84; Overall 1.69.

2019: Home - 5.52; Away 3.61; Overall 4.54.

Progress in 2019 undoubtedly, but he hasn't progressed beyond the reserve berths and the figures don't add up to someone, who could be labelled a top level talent either.

[Normski]

12 minutes ago, moomin man 76 said:

Yes I do know that Kyle won a World Championship as a child; however, in the cold heart life of day, I also know that his official averages for 2018 and 2019 Championship seasons were as follows;

2018: Home - 2.49; Away 1.84; Overall 1.69.

2019: Home - 5.52; Away 3.61; Overall 4.54.

Progress in 2019 undoubtedly, but he hasn't progressed beyond the reserve berths and the figures don't add up to someone, who could be labelled a top level talent either.

1976..Berwick..10..21..8..1..1.71
1977..Berwick..32..106..93..9..3.85
1978..Berwick..18..70..62..7..3.94
1979..Berwick..43..192..408..24..9.00..4F..3P

This is former Berwick rider Wayne Brown stats he was 17 in 1976 and took him 3 seasons to reach Heat leader Standard so still time for Kyle.

[cinderfella]

I know Kyle has been with the Colts for a few years so obviously knows the Manchester track well but perhaps he needs a few seasons at the same track at Championship level to build on after having single seasons at Workington and then Glasgow.
Equally I know Dan Bewley swapped tracks after single seasons at Edinburgh, Glasgow and Workington while also riding with Belle Vue so who knows?

[IainB]

3 hours ago, woodenspoon said:

The problem for Berwick speedway seems to be a track around a football pitch, which tends to make for narrow straights and  entrances and exits on corners. I believe Hull had the same problem, and when Odsal ran its first meeting in 1946, no rider managed to get around the first turn, and they had to make quick alterations.

Unfortunately most tracks are forced to make a track that fits the existing stadium, rather than having the luxury of a blank canvas to work on.

 

2 hours ago, cinderfella said:

Jeez oh plenty of riders manage to ride tracks of all shapes and sizes whether they be around football or rugby pitches or inside or outside greyhound or stockcar tracks.
If you are going to blaming the shape of the track for poor racing then I'd suggest you're watching the wrong sport.
Every rider has to learn to adapt to different track shapes and surfaces throughout their careers so perhaps it's only talented and/or skilled riders who go on to become good?

 

Leicester had a blank canvas to work with and still managed to build a track as if it were around a football pitch with no football pitch there! It's true that riders can manage to ride it as when Leicester were in the top league the racing was much better than it is in the 2nd tier. Only Scott Nicholls and Chris Harris seem to be able to make passes with any regularity

[IainB]

courtesy of https://wwosbackup.proboards.com/

Looking at previous line-ups for the British U21 Championship how many have gone on to hold down a team spot in the PL?

2012

1..T Perry (Somerset/Dudley)..3,3,2,1,3 = 12 - 2nd
2..K Howarth (Workington)..2,2,3,3,1 = 11 - 3rd
3..R Branford (Buxton)..0,2,1,2,2 = 7
4..B Morley (Rye House)..1,1,2,0,M = 4
5..M Owen (Isle of Wight)..1,1,0,W = 2
6..K Newman (Somerset)..2,3,3,1,0 = 9
7..J Haines (Sheffield)..3,1,3,2,2 = 11 - 1st
8..A Wrathall (Scunthorpe)..0,0,0,1,0 = 1
9..S Worrall (Newcastle/Scunthorpe)..2,2,2,2,3 = 11
10..A Morris (Dudley)..1,0,1,3,0 = 5
11..S Nielsen (Mildenhall)..0,3,0,2,3 = 8
12..R Worrall (Newcastle/Stoke)..3,3,0,3,3 = 12
13..J Sarjeant (Rye House)..0,0,0,0,W = 0
14..J Hart (Scunthorpe)..3,1,3,0,0 = 7
15..J Garrity (Rye House)..2,0,0,3,2 = 7
16..J Jacobs (Mildenhall)..1,2,1,1,0 = 5

 

2009

1..J Auty..(Sheffield)..2,3,1,3,1 = 10
2..J Haines..(Rye House)..3,2,0,2,3 = 10
3..J Courtney..(Rye House)..1,1,1,1,2 = 6
4..B Johnson..(Isle of Wight)..0,2,1,0,1 = 4
5..K Hughes..(Plymouth)..1,2,2,2,2 = 9
6..T Woffinden..(Wolverhampton)..2,0,2,3,3 = 10
7..M Baseby..(Bournemouth)..0,0,2,2,0 = 4
8..B Barker..(Coventry)..3,3,3,1,3 = 13
9..L Smart..(Weymouth)..1,1,2,2,2 = 8
10..R Mear..(Rye House)..2,3,3,3,2 = 13
11..L Bridger..(Eastbourne)..3,3,3,3,3 = 15
12..B Hopwood..(Isle of Wight)..0,0,1,1,0 = 2
13..P Starke..(Plymouth)..2,0,0,0,1 = 3
14..C Wright..(Workington)..1,W = 1
15..S Lambert..(Scunthorpe)..3,2,3,1,0 = 9
16..K Newman..(Bournemouth)..0,1,0,0,1 = 2

[HGould]

Kyle has ridden at Workington, Glasgow, Berwick. Belle Vue. 

Seems to have stalled a little. 

If I was his mentor, I'd be on the phone to Newcastle. 

He needs to learn how to ride more technical tracks better. 

Will make him a more complete rider. 

[Bagpuss]

6 hours ago, Stoke Potter said:

I'm pretty sure I've had major disagreements with Bagpuss on here before but I have agree with him/her 100% on this; it looks narrow and appears to ride narrow.

As regards viewing figures, the highest I saw it at was around 2400.

Can’t remember those! Must be getting old

ps him  

[Bagpuss]

5 hours ago, cinderfella said:

Jeez oh plenty of riders manage to ride tracks of all shapes and sizes whether they be around football or rugby pitches or inside or outside greyhound or stockcar tracks.
If you are going to blaming the shape of the track for poor racing then I'd suggest you're watching the wrong sport.
Every rider has to learn to adapt to different track shapes and surfaces throughout their careers so perhaps it's only talented and/or skilled riders who go on to become good?

 

But the racing is usually strung out and processional at Berwick for league meetings according to punters on here so why would people expect a field of inexperienced riders on a heavy track to magically produce loads of passing? Not gonna happen yet people on this thread are blaming those who rode! Barmy. 

Kemp and Palin have got stuck in and showed what they can do on a proper racetrack tonight. 

[topsoil]

Interesting post on Berwick's facebook page tonight about the difficulties they faced when it came to track preparation, the power failure and the setbacks suffered by those involved in the streaming.

[sparks123]

On 10/21/2020 at 9:31 PM, Bagpuss said:

Certainly nowhere near as wet but grippier and much narrower, I don’t wish to criticise the people at Berwick but this event would have been far better at a wider and slicker track. 

The track was ripped up and re-laid (removed bucket loads of shale from the track) due to the rain at the beginning of the week and on the Wednesday afternoon. You cannot control the weather (might have been slicker if there wasn't a heavy downpour in the afternoon).

On 10/21/2020 at 10:09 PM, OveFundinFan said:

Some grumbling about the track and quality of racing. Could it be a lot of the riders have not had much track time this year and were racing a bit “cold”. Let’s face , a meeting in the middle of October is unlikely to give the best entertainment. The meeting should have been run by someone smarter then who was doing it. Too much  time between races made it drag on and the meeting proper did not finish due to the curfew on noise to the neighbouring houses. I will be giving a donation in the morning to give encouragement to Berwick Speedway. It will help to cover expenses - not many things in life are free, running a speedway meeting needs paying for.

There were riders with 2 races on the trot so there needed to be a slight break for them. The referee is in control of the meeting (possibly with Neil Vatcher). 

23 hours ago, cinderfella said:

Bewley and Kemp looked like they were on faster Premier League standard machines while Flint's obvious track knowledge gave him a wee edge.
It would have been interesting to have had the winning times to have compared the top four.

Bewley's times ranged from 62.9- 65.1 (5 quickest times) Leon's was about 66.9, Anders was 65.9 and Drew 65.1.

Craig's track record was 62.8 and in the Edinburgh meeting at the end of last season the times ranged from 66.4 - 68.7 (there were 9 times faster than 66.4).

15 hours ago, waytogo28 said:

If that is the best level of live streaming that UK speedway can offer up it will fail completely, starting late ( due to power proble,s. if true that should have been checked well before ), Very poor camera work - follow the man in front and never show a complete race . Constant buffering on the stream delivery. The very poor meeting management where there is no urgency of any kind to get with it ( one of the reasons why UK domestic speedway is in the place it is with supporters walking away ). I will not comment on the racing ( what little of it there was ). For me it was a brave experiment of live match streaming - possibly the future of UK league racing, well it proved to be terrible VFM. My intention was that if it was a good taste of what streaming could be I would donate £10, but as it was so dire overall and came out looking very amateurish I donated £2 for "effort" in trying . 2/10 rating.

All electrics were inspected & tested by the stadium contractor before the football season started.  The speedway electrics were tested on Sunday and Wednesday afternoon and were all working. The referee tested all electrics when he arrived (as they will do at every track). Somerset would have tested the speakers before the pairs (have been dodgy the last few years), Peterborough would have tested the electrics before the 4's but had faults 2 years running and Gorzow would have tested the electrics before the transformer went on fire (shows it happens everywhere and not just Berwick). The fault wasn't on one of the speedway fuse boards.

 I haven't seen the stream but the power cut had a massive effect on the stream. The Power was removed from various stadium fuse boards (killing the power to everything regarding the stream) as the supply isolator is three phase (fault on one phase). They did a great job getting it all back up and running after losing power to everything and not just the things that was on the affected control fuse (probably lost a few meeting graphics etc).

13 hours ago, woodenspoon said:

Not the greatest of meetings racing wise, heat 12 only decent race, they could have saved a lot of time by just running heat 16, which decided the outcome, Dan lucky to get  a  re-run as he was last when Kemp fell.

Let's hope Belle Vue put on a far slicker presentation, as the meeting ran at a snails pace last night, there did not seem to be any clock at the start gate, so the riders took ages to come to the tapes.

I did donate, as I had watched the meeting, but will think twice before paying to watch at Berwick again, what were the so called improvements made to the track, didn't look any different to me.

The referee is in control of the meeting (possibly with Neil Vatcher) but riders were within their rights to take time before they settled (there is no 2 min clock but the 2 minute lights cancel after 2min 3seconds or when the green light goes on). I think the lights went off 3 times during the meeting (1 when a rider lost his steel shoe and cannot remember the other 2 heats). Possibly can try to get the riders up quicker but there will probably be one who is still digging and causing a delay.

9 hours ago, Stoke Potter said:

From google maps, measuring the width of the home straight gets you something less than 9m as an example the equivalent measurement for Belle Vue is something over 13m.

Now I will acknowledge that the Berwick measurement will be out of date due to the recent work and the figures will not be totally precise, but I got the impression from the view of the start that the straight was narrow and the above backs up that feeling.  I supposed it depends on each persons definition of narrow.

Regardless the promotion should be applauded for attempting to make track improvements, most tracks in this country need it.

Think the home straight was something like 33 feet at the start gate (as others have said over 10m for FIM approval). 

[IainB]

8 hours ago, sparks123 said:

 I haven't seen the stream but the power cut had a massive effect on the stream. The Power was removed from various stadium fuse boards (killing the power to everything regarding the stream) as the supply isolator is three phase (fault on one phase). They did a great job getting it all back up and running after losing power to everything and not just the things that was on the affected control fuse (probably lost a few meeting graphics etc).

Do you know why the 1,800 or so fans, many of whom would have made a donation for the stream, were not informed that the meeting had already started and was being shown on a different stream?

[waytogo28]

10 hours ago, sparks123 said:

All electrics were inspected & tested by the stadium contractor before the football season started.  The speedway electrics were tested on Sunday and Wednesday afternoon and were all working. The referee tested all electrics when he arrived (as they will do at every track). Somerset would have tested the speakers before the pairs (have been dodgy the last few years), Peterborough would have tested the electrics before the 4's but had faults 2 years running and Gorzow would have tested the electrics before the transformer went on fire (shows it happens everywhere and not just Berwick). The fault wasn't on one of the speedway fuse boards.

 I haven't seen the stream but the power cut had a massive effect on the stream. The Power was removed from various stadium fuse boards (killing the power to everything regarding the stream) as the supply isolator is three phase (fault on one phase). They did a great job getting it all back up and running after losing power to everything and not just the things that was on the affected control fuse (probably lost a few meeting graphics etc).

Thank you for responding to the feedback of supporters who used the Live Stream. For me it was a golden oportunity to see just how viable streaming may be for domestic league UK speedway in the future. I would have been unhappy if I had paid £10 so the opportunity to see what it might be like elsewhere in 2021 was very poitive. With a goegraphical limit( so that local supporters cannot take the easy option and watch from home - although I disagree with that idea ) Uk tracks can only benefit from streaming in the future - if set at a reasonable price. Otherwise crowds wil fall below sustainable levels in the stadiums ( if they are not at that point already ). From what you say every reasonable effort was made to prepare well. If that was indeed the case then streaming may not save UK speedway if it is so easily made unreliable.

[sparks123]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

Do you know why the 1,800 or so fans, many of whom would have made a donation for the stream, were not informed that the meeting had already started and was being shown on a different stream?

I can only guess (George would probably be able to answer better than me) .

I think the two people who mainly run the social media weren't there (not sure about one and wouldn't like to say why the other wasn't there). Jamie, Scott, Gary etc would be involved in lots of things and would have got the information out as soon as they could (possibly got the stream to start to make sure it wasn't going to drop out?). Not really a full answer but as I say its only my thoughts.

 

[sparks123]

6 minutes ago, waytogo28 said:

If that was indeed the case then streaming may not save UK speedway if it is so easily made unreliable.

Before the power outage the stream was working fine (rider interviews etc shown on social media I heard).  You unfortunately cannot guard against a power failure (or mains isolator fuse failure) so I cannot say it would be unreliable in most cases (possibly affect a very small percentage and unfortunately this was one).

[George Dodds]

23 minutes ago, sparks123 said:

I can only guess (George would probably be able to answer better than me) .

I think the two people who mainly run the social media weren't there (not sure about one and wouldn't like to say why the other wasn't there). Jamie, Scott, Gary etc would be involved in lots of things and would have got the information out as soon as they could (possibly got the stream to start to make sure it wasn't going to drop out?). Not really a full answer but as I say its only my thoughts.

 

only sort of. I know that as soon as was possible the new link was posted on the news section of the Bandits' website and that the twitter and Facebook accounts advertised the links. Although obviously if those looking at the broken link didn't look on the sites showing them how to follow the new link .then ...  

[Fromafar]

1 hour ago, George Dodds said:

only sort of. I know that as soon as was possible the new link was posted on the news section of the Bandits' website and that the twitter and Facebook accounts advertised the links. Although obviously if those looking at the broken link didn't look on the sites showing them how to follow the new link .then ...  

I think the main problem being the link did not give any indication that it was broken, just said waiting for Berwick Speedway Website after the count down had finished, and as the count down worked it was easy to assume there was still something wrong for everyone.Still live and learn.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Fromafar