British Speedway to be reborn??

[waytogo28]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:45 PM, Fortythirtyeight said:

True speedway fans go to watch RACING not individuals. You could argue that racing should take place if a lesser rider tries to beat a ‘ star ‘ but the names don’t mean a thing, it’s the quality of the racing that counts.

That is my take on it and over the last few years at King's Lynn` I saw precioud little regular good qualityu racing but went to see the Stars  of Tomorrow on March 8th - excellent racing with riders eager to give it their all. Points money only in pro speedway  will go a long way to ensure that riders ALL want to give it a go. I love Robert Lambert but if he gated every time that would soon lose it's appeal!

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:45 PM, Fortythirtyeight said:

True speedway fans go to watch RACING not individuals. 

There is clearly though very, very few true fans who simply invest in the idea of great racing regardless of the level of rider . That has always been a comfort blanket fantasy grasped to by some on this forum. 

If you put a GP on tomorrow at Belle Vue and then a National League Riders Championship the next night..... one of them is getting a much bigger crowd than the other (in circumstance when people could attend sport clearly) 

"Ahhh but Isle of Wight went NL and ahhh Eastbourne" 

Clearly there will be exceptions to the rule, but more often than not people have wanted to see and paid to see the better standard of individual as the better individuals do produce better racing. It is racing of a higher quality than for instance 4 guys at NL level going around "close" to each other, most don't equate that to a high standard of racing they want to pay to watch, it is years and years and years and years of evidence now that support this. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[Fortythirtyeight]

18 hours ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

There is clearly though very, very few true fans who simply invest in the idea of great racing regardless of the level of rider . That has always been a comfort blanket fantasy grasped to by some on this forum. 

If you put a GP on tomorrow at Belle Vue and then a National League Riders Championship the next night..... one of them is getting a much bigger crowd than the other (in circumstance when people could attend sport clearly) 

"Ahhh but Isle of Wight went NL and ahhh Eastbourne" 

Clearly there will be exceptions to the rule, but more often than not people have wanted to see and paid to see the better standard of individual as the better individuals do produce better racing. It is racing of a higher quality than for instance 4 guys at NL level going around "close" to each other, most don't equate that to a high standard of racing they want to pay to watch, it is years and years and years and years of evidence now that support this. 

I disagree.

Ive seen some excellent NL matches and dire ‘ Elite ‘ league matches, same goes for quite a few G.P.’S even at Cardiff.

 I’ve also witnessed larger crowds at championship clubs than Belle Vue , Leicester ( elite days ) and P’ Bro so your statement doesn’t hold water.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

1 minute ago, Fortythirtyeight said:

I disagree.

Ive seen some excellent NL matches and dire ‘ Elite ‘ league matches, same goes for quite a few G.P.’S even at Cardiff.

 I’ve also witnessed larger crowds at championship clubs than Belle Vue , Leicester ( elite days ) and P’ Bro so your statement doesn’t hold water.

I think the mythology around the NL is one that has been romanticized on this forum to the point people simply ignore reality.  You only have to look at the name of the league, the purpose of the league and standard of rider in the league.....a lot of the racing is utterly turgid - sure the occasional race might pop up on YouTube and people think that is evidence that every meeting is an instant classic, but it is complete bollocks. It is also a league that has been in place for years, and years and years in many different forms and never had the crowds to back up what is a feeling from some that it is a standard of racing to bring in a crowd. The vast majority of teams can't get out of it quick enough. It is a league that shows "racing" alone is only a selling point to very, very few. 

In relation to your point on crowds. I said in my previous post, there will be instances of larger crowds at certain tracks on occasion and yes people will make mention of Glasgow as a Championship side who attract great crowds while also then also completely overlooking that most crowds are rank rotten, as they are at most tracks in the NL. It is the few rather than the majority who attract a better crowd in a lower league, again, hence why most teams typically look to move back up leagues rather than down. 

 

[orion]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:45 PM, Fortythirtyeight said:

 

True speedway fans go to watch RACING not individuals. 

No they don't . one the biggest  speedway myth of all time.

[Fortythirtyeight]

1 hour ago, orion said:

No they don't . one the biggest  speedway myth of all time.

So why do neutral fans go to other tracks  ? ( Newcastle fans go to Redcar every week for example )
why go to individual meetings ?

why go to GP’s?

to watch RACING!.

[Fortythirtyeight]

1 hour ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

I think the mythology around the NL is one that has been romanticized on this forum to the point people simply ignore reality.  You only have to look at the name of the league, the purpose of the league and standard of rider in the league.....a lot of the racing is utterly turgid - sure the occasional race might pop up on YouTube and people think that is evidence that every meeting is an instant classic, but it is complete bollocks. It is also a league that has been in place for years, and years and years in many different forms and never had the crowds to back up what is a feeling from some that it is a standard of racing to bring in a crowd. The vast majority of teams can't get out of it quick enough. It is a league that shows "racing" alone is only a selling point to very, very few. 

In relation to your point on crowds. I said in my previous post, there will be instances of larger crowds at certain tracks on occasion and yes people will make mention of Glasgow as a Championship side who attract great crowds while also then also completely overlooking that most crowds are rank rotten, as they are at most tracks in the NL. It is the few rather than the majority who attract a better crowd in a lower league, again, hence why most teams typically look to move back up leagues rather than down. 

 

Clubs move leagues for business reasons. Somerset, Peterborough, Leicester all found they got the same crowd for Elite as they did for championship matches but the wages were a lot less , and often, the fans preferred the standard of championship RACING.
Ive seen fantastic RACES at amateur meetings , just because someone gets paid more doesn’t mean it produces better racing.

[Ray Stadia]

8 minutes ago, Fortythirtyeight said:

Clubs move leagues for business reasons. Somerset, Peterborough, Leicester all found they got the same crowd for Elite as they did for championship matches but the wages were a lot less , and often, the fans preferred the standard of championship RACING.
Ive seen fantastic RACES at amateur meetings , just because someone gets paid more doesn’t mean it produces better racing.

I wonder if 'Fortythirtyeight' is 'Philip Rising' incognito? 

[orion]

23 minutes ago, Fortythirtyeight said:

So why do neutral fans go to other tracks  ? ( Newcastle fans go to Redcar every week for example )
why go to individual meetings ?

why go to GP’s?

to watch RACING!.

People go to watch the better names before anything else .. if the racing good its a bonus . its just common sense just like would be it any other sport 

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

34 minutes ago, Fortythirtyeight said:

Clubs move leagues for business reasons. Somerset, Peterborough, Leicester all found they got the same crowd for Elite as they did for championship matches but the wages were a lot less , and often, the fans preferred the standard of championship RACING.
Ive seen fantastic RACES at amateur meetings , just because someone gets paid more doesn’t mean it produces better racing.

You are using instances that are the minority rather than norm, I am not denying what you are saying happens happens, but it hasn't been the typical chosen choice and nor have they chose to move to the National League, the NL has been a rehab league for teams who couldn't get out it quick enough. 

And the standard of cost paid to a rider without question does lead to a better standard of racing. It's just gibberish to suggest racing is better at National League level, the notion the National League can produce racing the standard of the Final of the GP the other day for instance is hilarious. 

Awaits YouTube clip...before it is even posted I can state the following - It's slower, it is mistaken ridden, it is technically flawed racing which is why it is a National League and not a Grand Prix race, the National League is poorly attended, there are very, very few "true speedway fans" who simply attend for the love of the race irrespective of who is in that race

Edited September 16, 2020 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[Fortythirtyeight]

42 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

You are using instances that are the minority rather than norm, I am not denying what you are saying happens happens, but it hasn't been the typical chosen choice and nor have they chose to move to the National League, the NL has been a rehab league for teams who couldn't get out it quick enough. 

And the standard of cost paid to a rider without question does lead to a better standard of racing. It's just gibberish to suggest racing is better at National League level, the notion the National League can produce racing the standard of the Final of the GP the other day for instance is hilarious. 

Awaits YouTube clip...before it is even posted I can state the following - It's slower, it is mistaken ridden, it is technically flawed racing which is why it is a National League and not a Grand Prix race, the National League is poorly attended, there are very, very few "true speedway fans" who simply attend for the love of the race irrespective of who is in that race

When have I ever stated NL racing is better ?

I was making the point that racing can be just as good at an amateur meeting as an Elite meeting, you clearly don't agree , but as some one who attends all levels  ( and in different countries ) I’m not snobbish enough to think that a top name produces better RACING . Watch some youth meetings , you will see good RACING.

I obviously don’t agree with your statements,  as a former Comets fan who attends different tracks I regularly meet many fans from tracks not competing at the venue ( Sheffield fans at Redcar, Berwick fans at Newcastle, Glasgow fans at Edinburgh ) and they are there to see the RACING, not the names and wage packets .
without “ True speedway fans “ there’d be very very few clubs left.

 

 

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

4 minutes ago, Fortythirtyeight said:

When have I ever stated NL racing is better ?

I was making the point that racing can be just as good at an amateur meeting as an Elite meeting, you clearly don't agree , but as some one who attends all levels  ( and in different countries ) I’m not snobbish enough to think that a top name produces better RACING . Watch some youth meetings , you will see good RACING.

I obviously don’t agree with your statements,  as a former Comets fan who attends different tracks I regularly meet many fans from tracks not competing at the venue ( Sheffield fans at Redcar, Berwick fans at Newcastle, Glasgow fans at Edinburgh ) and they are there to see the RACING, not the names and wage packets .
without “ True speedway fans “ there’d be very very few clubs left.

 

 

 

It' not snobbish it is an undeniable truth that better riders will produce a better standard of racing.  You are advocating watching a couple of pensioners racing around a track has the same appeal as watching World Class athletes at the Olympics...people going around a track the same time close, doesn't always equate to good purely because they are involved in a "race". 

I meet loads of people who don't give a sh it and want to see the best riders and their team win...there are very few speedway purists these days there for the buzz of a good race no matter the score I mean crowds do reflect that, the sport is on it's arse in this country 

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[Fortythirtyeight]

6 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

 

It' not snobbish it is an undeniable truth that better riders will produce a better standard of racing.  You are advocating watching a couple of pensioners racing around a track has the same appeal as watching World Class athletes at the Olympics...people going around a track the same time close, doesn't always equate to good purely because they are involved in a "race". 

I meet loads of people who don't give a sh it and want to see the best riders and their team win...there are very few speedway purists these days there for the buzz of a good race no matter the score I mean crowds do reflect that, the sport is on it's arse in this country 

 

You have your very biased opinion , I have my open opinion.
I DO agree it’s on its arse, but it’s only the true fans keeping some clubs going.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

20 minutes ago, Fortythirtyeight said:

You have your very biased opinion , I have my open opinion.
I DO agree it’s on its arse, but it’s only the true fans keeping some clubs going.

Of which there are few... which leads back to what I am saying, the prospect of real racing regardless of who is involved which appeals to true fans is a very niche audience, a small group of people. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[Najjer]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:45 PM, Fortythirtyeight said:

Somerset signed Jason Doyle , a World Champion, and their crowd went up exactly zero %.

True speedway fans go to watch RACING not individuals. You could argue that racing should take place if a lesser rider tries to beat a ‘ star ‘ but the names don’t mean a thing, it’s the quality of the racing that counts.

A winning team also helps.

I'm not sure that's entirely true - The crowds were definetly up in my eyes. Whether they were up ENOUGH is a different debate all together.

[IainB]

20 hours ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

Awaits YouTube clip...before it is even posted I can state the following - It's slower, it is mistaken ridden, it is technically flawed racing which is why it is a National League and not a Grand Prix race, the National League is poorly attended, there are very, very few "true speedway fans" who simply attend for the love of the race irrespective of who is in that race

I like your National League quality post 

But for me personally I do agree with you. I was eagerly awaiting the opportunity to watch some NL action last year at Leicester as part of a double header, but due to Leicester's inability to run a meeting at a reasonable pace it was rained off, so I never got to see it. But I have watched NL standard racing over the years and it's never really been "proper speedway" for me.

I do know that the racing at Leicester (for me) was generally better when they were in the top league with the better standard of rider. With the exception of watching Scott Nicholls last year who really mastered the track, a lot of experience there though.

As for what fans want, in reality different fans want different things. Some fans lap up their team winning by 30 points every week, the floaters probably want a close match with good racing, a new fan probably wants a value for money night out, doesn't care about the "stars" is not going to know former world champ Jason Doyle from the Jason Doyle plumber who lives down the road at 22 Arcacia Avenue

[mikebv]

22 hours ago, Fortythirtyeight said:

When have I ever stated NL racing is better ?

I was making the point that racing can be just as good at an amateur meeting as an Elite meeting, you clearly don't agree , but as some one who attends all levels  ( and in different countries ) I’m not snobbish enough to think that a top name produces better RACING . Watch some youth meetings , you will see good RACING.

I obviously don’t agree with your statements,  as a former Comets fan who attends different tracks I regularly meet many fans from tracks not competing at the venue ( Sheffield fans at Redcar, Berwick fans at Newcastle, Glasgow fans at Edinburgh ) and they are there to see the RACING, not the names and wage packets .
without “ True speedway fans “ there’d be very very few clubs left.

 

 

The best value for money racing I have seen at the NSS was NL standard.

The Colts v Kent and Colts v Mildenhall are two great meetings that stand out over the past few years..

Just £10 for me and  my U18 lad combined, true VFM..

Remove the names from the programme and just call them "Red, Blue, White and Yellow" and just watch the racing, and you would be hard pushed to see better racing anywhere and at any level..

'Superstars of UK Speedway' is very much a misnomer anyway for me, given so few non Speedway sports fans (given the sports' wider awareness), would recognise these riders either visually or by name, and even Speedway fans hardly recognise you as a 'Superstar' anyway I would suggest if only 1200 to 1500 in total or so are prepared to turn up and watch you when you hit their town two or three times a year as a visitor, or weekly(ish) as a home rider..

It will be interesting to see exactly what level UK Speedway will be able to afford post Covid 19 if they want to maintain the three league structure, and continue with so many teams and all with seven team places each.. 

There cannot be, I would suggest, "haves and have nots" riding in the same league if it is to remain viable from a wider collective perspective..

'Walkovers' would quickly decrease crowds even more, even at home for those who are winning every week..

Setting the "sweet spot level" for each league will be a major challenge, but 100% fundamental for the viability and survival, let alone future growth, of all clubs for me..

What an opportunity though for a 100% complete and innovative reset...

Edited September 17, 2020 by mikebv

[ch958]

There cannot be, I would suggest, "haves and have nots" riding in the same league if it is to remain viable from a wider collective perspective..

'Walkovers' would quickly decrease crowds even more, even at home for those who are winning every week..

Setting the "sweet spot level" for each league will be a major challenge, but 100% fundamental for the viability and survival, let alone future growth, of all clubs for me..

What an opportunity though for a 100% complete and innovative reset...

 

Completely agree but without a non partizan person or group involved in team levelling we'd get the same greed and self interest we had last time when my team, for one, was completely shafted. So long as we forget or ignore that a league is a group which takes strength from its whole we're bolloxed.

Nearly every club in every division has been up sht creek at one time or another, including Poole, including Wolves, christ you name them they've had a sticky patch. Without unity there'll be no away teams to turn up every week and its in the interest of that home team to make sure the away team is worth watching. Again it screams out for a controller, overlord, ceo, call him or her what you want.

[steve roberts]

32 minutes ago, ch958 said:

There cannot be, I would suggest, "haves and have nots" riding in the same league if it is to remain viable from a wider collective perspective..

'Walkovers' would quickly decrease crowds even more, even at home for those who are winning every week..

Setting the "sweet spot level" for each league will be a major challenge, but 100% fundamental for the viability and survival, let alone future growth, of all clubs for me..

What an opportunity though for a 100% complete and innovative reset...

 

Completely agree but without a non partizan person or group involved in team levelling we'd get the same greed and self interest we had last time when my team, for one, was completely shafted. So long as we forget or ignore that a league is a group which takes strength from its whole we're bolloxed.

Nearly every club in every division has been up sht creek at one time or another, including Poole, including Wolves, christ you name them they've had a sticky patch. Without unity there'll be no away teams to turn up every week and its in the interest of that home team to make sure the away team is worth watching. Again it screams out for a controller, overlord, ceo, call him or her what you want.

Coudn't agree more!

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

On 9/17/2020 at 8:52 AM, iainb said:

I like your National League quality post 

But for me personally I do agree with you. I was eagerly awaiting the opportunity to watch some NL action last year at Leicester as part of a double header, but due to Leicester's inability to run a meeting at a reasonable pace it was rained off, so I never got to see it. But I have watched NL standard racing over the years and it's never really been "proper speedway" for me.

I do know that the racing at Leicester (for me) was generally better when they were in the top league with the better standard of rider. With the exception of watching Scott Nicholls last year who really mastered the track, a lot of experience there though.

As for what fans want, in reality different fans want different things. Some fans lap up their team winning by 30 points every week, the floaters probably want a close match with good racing, a new fan probably wants a value for money night out, doesn't care about the "stars" is not going to know former world champ Jason Doyle from the Jason Doyle plumber who lives down the road at 22 Arcacia Avenue

I would question that. I think if you are new it does matter to know you are seeing  a "someone" who is known to be established and good at a sport. I would say the appeal of a former World Champion is much greater than a journeymen NL rider. As a general rule people aren't silly (this forum though.....) people do know what "good" looks like when it comes to sport, attendances typically reflect that, the better participants do attract the better crowds. 

In a world where you took a group of people to a game of football who had never attended football before, what appeals more to more "that guy is Leo Messi, he has been pretty much regarded as one of the best players in the world the last 10 years" or "that is Mike he isn't that good really" - while the fame of Doyle is clearly less than Messi that general rule does still apply. 

RE the general point of creating balance being touched on here. 

The rule changes speedway has made to build crowds, create balance in teams, water down the product etc hasn't worked because there is an element of false and BS to it and most see through it. Sport is generally  about becoming and creating the best to then shot that participant or team down, speedway has spent 20 years trying to remove its self from that, the sport has created a false economy and it is failed one, there is no good, bad, balance in sides and clubs just a really mixed bag of crap with no one knowing what they actually are. There is little wrong with "big clubs" and "small clubs" a club size should generally reflect the local area and population, if the sport had walked that path it would have been OK. 

Speedway does little to create club mentality, club ethos, club identity I would argue these things offer a greater assistance to attendance than "oh jeez get the clacker and air horn out we just got pumped but what a smashing race, pass me my Wulf Sport jacket I am away for a Bovril",

Edited September 18, 2020 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan