Gorzow GP`s Round 3 and 4 Friday and Saturday 11th and 12th September

[HenryW]

11 minutes ago, chunky said:

Doyle proved he can still do it. That's the thing, while people still think it's all about Zmarzlik, on their day, there are a bunch of riders who are proving that they can ride at that level - and that's only over three meetings so far!

All credit to Doyle for finding the setup as the night went on, but I still feel that the scoring system is....ermm....5hit.

12 race points, 1 race win during the night, but goes home with 18 GP series points....

I realise that the points system is known to all, but it just seems so inferior to recent seasons...I want to watch a meeting where every point counts and every rider is fighting for every point.
Tonight we saw a perfect example of where that maybe isn't happening now...Zmarzlik v Woffinden in heat 19. 
In that race we saw 2 potential title contenders going head to head...Zmarzlik knew that the result was irrelevant to him. He made some effort to put pressure on Woffinden, but he certainly didn't take any risks. Would he have had the same attitude with the scoring system last year? Who knows...Maybe he would have taken more risks for that extra point or maybe he still would have raced safe for 2 points there. I don't know, but I know I watched that race with no excitement because I knew that it meant nothing to Zmarzlik or the World Championship, something that I couldn't have said last year....

[chunky]

Most of us agree about the points system, but we can't keep bleating about it every day. We knew what it was beforehand, so it shouldn't have been any surprise when it started throwing up these anomalies.

I'm not sure whether speedway is actually unique in the way we allocate actual race points, and then carry them over to the next stage (semis and final) like we used to.

The thing to remember is that the new system tends to fall in line with most other sports; the 20 heats are just used as a system to qualify riders for the semi-finals. The same as qualifying heats in athletic events, or qualifying groups for football events such as World Cup or Champions League. Once you have qualified for the next stage, what you did previously - in order to get there - doesn't matter.

Oh wait, isn't that what used to happen in the good old days of the World Final? Everybody was okay with riders scraping through the qualifying rounds, and then having a couple of good races and ending up as World Champion! In fact, we apparently loved the "unpredictability" of the system, but not so much now...

[racers and royals]

Links for today

http://www.maniak.tv/mk6

http://www.drhtv.com.pl/drhtv-2.html

https://daddylive.live/channels/stream-32.php   ENG

https://daddylive.live/channels/stream-3.php   POL

[IainB]

9 hours ago, Fromafar said:

Vaculik has been very disappointing for me,considering how he started the season.

 

9 hours ago, chunky said:

He was looking okay tonight, and then he tailed off.

Vaculik has been the big loser so far with the new points scoring and is at -4... the reason for this is because I had an e/w bet on him 

[Ben91]

The more I see, the more at ease I am with the new points system. I wouldn’t say I’m for it or against it, it is what it is. 

I don’t think it has diminished the on track action one bit. It changes the dynamic a little perhaps but it is still in a rider’s best interest to finish as high up the score chart as possible to secure the best gates for the semi-finals. It also places more emphasis on winning the meeting, which there should be.

There was some good racing last night, Doyley coming good was enjoyable to see after a rough start to the GP series too. I’m enjoying two GPs back to back as well. 

[SPEEDY69]

I'm a fan of the scoring system, adds unpredictability, something needed now most of the tracks are fastest bike wins. Scoring allows for an underdog to a great result. 

[bill94d]

7 minutes ago, SPEEDY69 said:

I'm a fan of the scoring system, adds unpredictability, something needed now most of the tracks are fastest bike wins. Scoring allows for an underdog to a great result. 

Yes but once a rider is into the semis he doesn't have to try to win races. I'm surprised that Smarzlik and Woffinden went at it the way they did towards the end of the meeting prior to the semis.

[Gunner85]

happy with new format.

track last night was poorly prepared and not conducive to top quality racing..... definitely racing out of the bottom drawer to paraphrase Kelvin

[glenantony]

Any news on Dudek?

I thought the racing was like much of the Extraleague - a lot of races were clear cut but with some real excitement and racing at other times, depending on how good the last grading had been. 

[racers and royals]

6 minutes ago, glenantony said:

Any news on Dudek?

I thought the racing was like much of the Extraleague - a lot of races were clear cut but with some real excitement and racing at other times, depending on how good the last grading had been. 

He’s going to give it a go

[chunky]

2 hours ago, bill94d said:

Yes but once a rider is into the semis he doesn't have to try to win races. I'm surprised that Smarzlik and Woffinden went at it the way they did towards the end of the meeting prior to the semis.

Which was EXACTLY the way it used to be in the days of the World Final qualification - particularly when you had 11 riders advancing from the Inter-Continental Final. Or 8 advancing from the British semis. Or...

The fact is, all this negativity - and accusations of riders "not trying to win" is coming from people who I'm sure have never competed in anything. The vast majority of individuals will ALWAYS go out to win and do their best, certainly at the higher levels. It's called "pride".

However, there will ALWAYS be situations where a little common sense and playing it safe will be a better option. That is nothing new, particularly in a dangerous sport like speedway...

[tyler42]

9 hours ago, chunky said:

Oh wait, isn't that what used to happen in the good old days of the World Final? Everybody was okay with riders scraping through the qualifying rounds, and then having a couple of good races and ending up as World Champion!

I think you needed a little bit more than a few good races to become World Champion back in the day! From 1949 through to 94, only three world finals were won with a total of less that thirteen. Whereas in thirty five years of those finals they were won with either a full house or fourteen points.

[Ben91]

2 hours ago, bill94d said:

Yes but once a rider is into the semis he doesn't have to try to win races. I'm surprised that Smarzlik and Woffinden went at it the way they did towards the end of the meeting prior to the semis.

Not true. Because of the importance of gate choices in the semi-finals. Tai wanted as many points as possible and for Zmarzlik to be put into the situation where he has to race it would be more dangerous for him to back off, so the fact that they raced hard doesn’t surprise me at all. 

[chunky]

1 minute ago, tyler42 said:

I think you needed a little bit more than a few good races to become World Champion back in the day! From 1949 through to 94, only three world finals were won with a total of less that thirteen. Whereas in thirty five years of those finals they were won with either a full house or fourteen points.

Go back and re-read what I said.

My point was that QUALIFYING for World finals (and indeed, all rounds) was no different to the system used in a 2020 GP. A rider could scrape through - and often did - from one round to the next, and it didn't make one iota of difference. Whether you won the I-C Final with a 15-point max, or scraped through in 11th place with 5 points, it didn't matter; you both started the World Final on level points. Which is what happens in a GP.

My point is that Rider A could qualify from the British S-F in 8th, the British Final in 5th, the Commonwealth Final in 9th, the Overseas Final in 8th, and the Inter-Continental Final in 11th. He never looked like winning a race.

Rider B could have won every race in those. Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference though, does it? They start the World Final absolutely level. Rider A could win TWO races, with three seconds. Rider B could win four races, and suffer an E/F. Rider A is World Champ having only won two races all season, and finishes higher than Rider B who only lost one race in the entire season!

It doesn't matter whether it happened or not, what matters is that it could. The fact is this : there WERE riders who scraped into meetings, and then made the most of their good fortune next time out. In fact, there WERE riders who became World Champion only having to win a small handful of races compared to others who worked hard all season and just fell at the final hurdle.

People really don't realise - or want to accept - that the old World Championship system (with the World Final) was the most flawed system we ever had...

[tyler42]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

Go back and re-read what I said.

My point was that QUALIFYING for World finals (and indeed, all rounds) was no different to the system used in a 2020 GP. A rider could scrape through - and often did - from one round to the next, and it didn't make one iota of difference. Whether you won the I-C Final with a 15-point max, or scraped through in 11th place with 5 points, it didn't matter; you both started the World Final on level points. Which is what happens in a GP.

My point is that Rider A could qualify from the British S-F in 8th, the British Final in 5th, the Commonwealth Final in 9th, the Overseas Final in 8th, and the Inter-Continental Final in 11th. He never looked like winning a race.

Rider B could have won every race in those. Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference though, does it? They start the World Final absolutely level. Rider A could win TWO races, with three seconds. Rider B could win four races, and suffer an E/F. Rider A is World Champ having only won two races all season, and finishes higher than Rider B who only lost one race in the entire season!

It doesn't matter whether it happened or not, what matters is that it could. The fact is this : there WERE riders who scraped into meetings, and then made the most of their good fortune next time out. In fact, there WERE riders who became World Champion only having to win a small handful of races compared to others who worked hard all season and just fell at the final hurdle.

People really don't realise - or want to accept - that the old World Championship system (with the World Final) was the most flawed system we ever had...

I think you're being slightly disingenuous or I have misread your post. If thats the case. I apologise. You originally said " and then having a couple of good races and ending up as World Champion!" All I did was highlight the fact that this was not the case in the majority of world finals. A couple of good rides would not be good enough to become world champion. 

[tyler42]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

People really don't realise - or want to accept - that the old World Championship system (with the World Final) was the most flawed system we ever had.

But. one rider winning one race compared to another winning six races and only a two point difference at the end of the night is not flawed in your opinion? It's beed said the new scoring system was to bring into line with other motor sports but, FI  has one race per GP, Moto GP has two, Superbikes has two. Speedway has 23 races per GP!! How is that in line with the other major motor sports? 

[nw42]

25 minutes ago, tyler42 said:

I think you're being slightly disingenuous or I have misread your post. If thats the case. I apologise. You originally said " and then having a couple of good races and ending up as World Champion!" All I did was highlight the fact that this was not the case in the majority of world finals. A couple of good rides would not be good enough to become world champion. 

That's how I read it to be fair, that you only needed a couple of good rides on World Final night to secure the championship.

[chunky]

11 minutes ago, nw42 said:

That's how I read it to be fair, that you only needed a couple of good rides on World Final night to secure the championship.

Again, what you did BEFORE the final meant nothing, even if you didn't drop a point. Some unfancied rider (who was only a low-order qualifier during the rounds) could have a couple of unusually good (or just well-timed) rides during the Final, and end up as World Champ.

That is the same with an individual GP now. How you qualified for the semis isn't important; what matters is just being there. You are all starting from scratch.

I know it seems different now, being done one one night (rather than over the season), but the concept is identical.

[nw42]

Just now, chunky said:

Again, what you did BEFORE the final meant nothing, even if you didn't drop a point. Some unfancied rider (who was only a low-order qualifier during the rounds) could have a couple of unusually good (or just well-timed) rides during the Final, and end up as World Champ.

That is the same with an individual GP now. How you qualified for the semis isn't important; what matters is just being there. You are all starting from scratch.

I know it seems different now, being done one one night (rather than over the season), but the concept is identical.

Thanks but I already realise that, I was only saying, in agreement with Tyler, that you appeared to be saying that "a couple of decent rides" on final night could secure the title. If that is what you're saying then you're wrong, as Tyler showed, the championship was invariably won with plenty of points, 4 good rides at least, not a couple.

[chunky]

34 minutes ago, tyler42 said:

But. one rider winning one race compared to another winning six races and only a two point difference at the end of the night is not flawed in your opinion? It's beed said the new scoring system was to bring into line with other motor sports but, FI  has one race per GP, Moto GP has two, Superbikes has two. Speedway has 23 races per GP!! How is that in line with the other major motor sports? 

See, you only read what you want to; I have NEVER said it's not flawed. In fact, not only did I state that "most of us" didn't like it, I have also stated elsewhere that I personally am not a fan. However, it is the same system as used in a lot of other sports with the 20 heats now being used as simple qualifiers. The only difference is that speedway does it all in one night.

I used the World Cup as an example. Germany could qualify for the World Cup finals with a 100% record in their group. England could lose a few games, and then beat someone in a play-off to join them. None of that matters now - England and Germany are both in the finals, and start with the same number of points (zero). Then we have the group matches at the Finals. Same thing; Germany win their group with 100% record, England drop points, but join Germany in the knockout rounds. Again, both start with the same number of points (zero).

Exactly the same.

The trouble is that with speedway, we love to look back on the way it used to be. Personally, I thought the system we had last year was fine (of course, the GP winner could still earn fewer points than the guys who didn't win - which is a flaw).