Wroclaw GP`s 1 and 2 Friday and Saturday 28th and 29th August

[chunky]

1 hour ago, Tim G said:

So because something is more popular and successful nobody can make a remark about it because a sport I enjoy unfortunately is not anymore.

Again, that was not directed at YOU. It's that this forum gets flooded with people slamming other sports, and just because you - and others - don't like or appreciate something doesn't mean that it IS boring, stupid, or whatever.

[chunky]

4 hours ago, Tim G said:

Very true, but many other forms of motorsport interest me but the ones that take the piss out of me for watching speedway are F1 fans!!

Yesterday wasn't the greatest race, but I still love to watch F1.

[Tim G]

3 hours ago, chunky said:

Again, that was not directed at YOU. It's that this forum gets flooded with people slamming other sports, and just because you - and others - don't like or appreciate something doesn't mean that it IS boring, stupid, or whatever.

Fair enough, sorry I took it the wrong way.

[IainB]

15 hours ago, Tim G said:

Speedway doesn’t really sit well with fans from other motorsports which does surprise me as it’s a damn site more entertaining than formula one.

Only in Speedway could you score 10 points and come away with 16 points one night and then the next night score 11 points but come away with 14 points... try and get your head round that if you're a non speedway fan

Then if you were to attend a league meeting and the teams draw, one team comes away with 1 league point and the other team goes away with 2 league points... for a draw!!

Edited September 1, 2020 by iainb

[Grachan]

22 minutes ago, iainb said:

Only in Speedway could you score 10 points and come away with 16 points one night and then the next night score 11 points but come away with 14 points... try and get your head round that if you're a non speedway fan

Then if you were to attend a league meeting and the teams draw, one team comes away with 1 league point and the other team goes away with 2 league points... for a draw!!

It's easy. Look up what the word "heats" means.

When I was at school, heats were always qualifying races and at first, when taken to speedway as a kid, I couldn't work out why speedway races in matches were called "heats" as they weren't qualifying for anything.

To check this wasn't just my own imagination, I googled the word "heat" :

It means: "a preliminary round in a race or contest"

So I looked up Preliminary and it means: "preceding or done in preparation for something fuller or more important".

So there you go. If you need to explain it to a non-speedway fan tell them that.

[IainB]

3 minutes ago, Grachan said:

It's easy. Look up what the word "heats" means.

When I was at school, heats were always qualifying races and at first, when taken to speedway as a kid, I couldn't work out why speedway races in matches were called "heats" as they weren't qualifying for anything.

To check this wasn't just my own imagination, I googled the word "heat" :

It means: "a preliminary round in a race or contest"

So I looked up Preliminary and it means: "preceding or done in preparation for something fuller or more important".

So there you go. If you need to explain it to a non-speedway fan tell them that.

I think my general point is, if you have to sit a new fan down with a dictionary, there's something drastically wrong

[Grachan]

Just now, iainb said:

I think my general point is, if you have to sit a new fan down with a dictionary, there's something drastically wrong

Well, you don't have to, but if they can't understand it then it might be helpful I guess.

Heats are, technically, qualifiers by definition.

[IainB]

7 minutes ago, Grachan said:

Well, you don't have to, but if they can't understand it then it might be helpful I guess.

Heats are, technically, qualifiers by definition.

Are there any other sports that abandon any points scored throughout an event and then allocate a different set of points based on the abandoned points?

Edited September 1, 2020 by iainb

[Grachan]

24 minutes ago, iainb said:

Are there any other sports that abandon any points scored throughout an event and then allocate a different set of points based on the abandoned points?

Tennis.

[fatface]

14 minutes ago, iainb said:

Are there any other sports that abandon any points scored throughout an event and then allocate a different set of points based on the abandoned points?

There's a lot different sports can learn a lot from one another. But it's asking for trouble when you copy and paste from other sports. It just doesn't work like that. 

I get the impression that what has played out here in the scoring is a result of classic corporate politics. The top guy at the FIM Jorge Viegas is far removed from understanding speedway and has issued two key developments he'd like to see for the sport....standardisation in scoring with other FIM sports and moving into new territories. So, Armando Castagna, unable to deliver on the latter, so he delivers on the former. He keeps the boss content and is seen to be making progress. 

[fatface]

16 hours ago, Tim G said:

I would say the Arenacross is a bit like Cardiff where you have your hardcore fans and the people going for an enjoyable night out, I wouldn’t be surprised if the splits about 50/50. Most people I know that go to Cardiff it is there only speedway meeting that year and I doubt very much they would want to go two days running.

However, if you had a GP at Belle Vue two days running I am sure it would sell out both days so maybe it could work at different stadiums.

Speedway doesn’t really sit well with fans from other motorsports which does surprise me as it’s a damn site more entertaining than formula one.

 

 

Sorry to say that these days I am one of those whose sole speedway outing of the year is Cardiff. And, I would definitely go to both nights. Even though 2019's racing was poor, I am yet to leave Cardiff not wishing I could do it all again the next night  

I don't doubt that a Cardiff double up would be the most challenging sell of the season. You are talking about a 75k stadium back to back that typically fills 40k for the speedway. But, the other GPs - on the face of it - seem like a no brainer. 

Like I say, the Arenacross is an interesting example. Another to look at is the London Grand Prix Athletics. It's a sport I am close to and that attracts a mix of athletics geeks and more casual sports fans and families. It was formerly a single Friday night event, but that switched to two days and has been a big success. Of course, neither provides the definitive answer for speedway. But it's an idea well worth exploring.

[Daniel Smith]

49 minutes ago, iainb said:

Are there any other sports that abandon any points scored throughout an event and then allocate a different set of points based on the abandoned points?

Are there any other Motorsports where the GP winner never earns the most points? 

[bigcatdiary]

I have read and listened to a lot of people on the new points scoring system and since the GP,s started we have tried several different and radical ideas of how to sort it out to come up with a winner.

Over recent years with every race counting and points, exclusions falls and retirements all being factored in we came up with a top 8 which was followed by two semi finals and a final, this has run for quite a few number of years and pretty much everyone understood it including riders and as others have said it’s very difficult for anyone to manipulate results.

Personally it doesn’t worry me at all that someone can accrue more points than the eventual winner, I really don’t see why we need to disadvantage or advantage riders over the meeting with an allocation of points they haven’t actually earned.

If it isn’t broke don’t fix it comes through very clearly in my opinion and the credibility of speedways flagship competition needs to be above reproach.

Whilst on the soap box I also wonder how on earth Dimitri Berge can be nominated as a qualified substitute for this years series, the blokes light years away from being a possible GP rider, if riders are not good enough to ride in the GP series why on earth do the federations allow them to attempt to qualify, this years GP Challenge is a classic example it was farcical.

[lucifer sam]

On 8/31/2020 at 10:40 AM, racers and royals said:

Lets not forget that the Friday/ Saturday`s  are only able to run this year due to the Extraleague`s co-operation in moving some Friday night meetings. Not sure that in 2021 they would think the same 

FIM need to get tougher and make qualifying on Friday nights compulsory. Any rider failing to do so is banned - while no Federation is allowed to take sanctions against riders taking in an official practice.  It's not like there aren't enough other Fridays in the season.  If the Federation continues to offend, it receives a heavy fine and has sanctions taken against them - maybe that Federation has receives no wildcard nominations for five years.  Stop the tail from wagging the dog.

[lucifer sam]

26 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Are there any other Motorsports where the GP winner never earns the most points? 

Never?  Would it interesting to go back and check but I would say the winner did have the most points in at least two-thirds of cases.

And every other motorsport offers points PER RACE.  In F2, separate points are awarded for both the feature race and the sprint race. Likewise, British Touring cars awards championship points for each of the three races per round.

A Speedway Grand Prix has 23 races and was awarding points for each of them, in line with other motorsports.  It is now the outlier in not doing that.  

If you want to give the final greater emphasis, go back to 6-4-2-0 for the final.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.   The worst thing the new points system will produce hasn't even happened yet.  It's when riders, having already qualified for the semis, manipulate the results to stop their rivals from getting through and speedway is then accused of being corrupt. It's most likely to happen in the last couple of rounds.

Edited September 1, 2020 by lucifer sam

[racers and royals]

12 minutes ago, lucifer sam said:

FIM need to get tougher and make qualifying on Friday nights compulsory. Any rider failing to do so is banned - while no Federation is allowed to take sanctions against riders taking in an official practice.  It's not like there aren't enough other Fridays in the season.  If the Federation continues to offend, it receives a heavy fine and has sanctions taken against them - maybe that Federation has receives no wildcard nominations for five years.  Stop the tail from wagging the dog.

They needed to have done it when they got wind of the Poles going to all matches on TV which meant a split to Friday`s and Sunday`s. Maybe just Maybe they will continue with Monday`s which they have used a lot in 2020( won`t please GB)

[IainB]

55 minutes ago, Grachan said:

Tennis.

Good call... It's not a GP series though, it's a knock out tournament

[lucifer sam]

On 8/31/2020 at 8:52 AM, falcace said:

Yes, I must say that in the one-off era though, I didn't think the two day worked well at all. And yes, I was at that final too. Saturday night crackled along (although was still no barnstormer) and Sunday felt very flat with nothing to race for for half the field.

I guess we'll have two perspectives on it anyway. I assume you were cheering Hans Nielsen to the title? I was cheering Chris Morton and Sunday was a dead duck. It might have been different if the the lower half of the field had something to ride for....like automatic qualification to the following year's final perhaps? But, that wouldn't have been in the spirit of the one-off either. 

By the way, I watched that final again on YouTube recently and was pleasantly surprised that some of the racing was quite decent. Also, Nielsen was a real cut above everyone else.

Yeah, we do have different perspectives of that weekend.  For me, it was special, simply because it was my first foreign final, and of course, as you mention, we had Hans Nielsen to cheer on.

The Saturday night meeting was definitely the better for racing, which was just as well, the way Hans was trapping that night. Even Mort gated in front of him.    I think he had problem with his clutches, but still scored 12 points to keep himself in the mix.  I do remember the Saturday night being a really cracking meeting. I think there was some decent races on the Sunday afternoon as well, although only John Cook gave Hans any kind of race.

But, to also answer Grachan's point, the place wasn't heaving, but I already knew from Bradford 1985 that every final couldn't live up to Wembley 1981 (my first World Final) in terms of atmosphere. By the time we reached 1990, I realised how good a venue Bradford was for a World Final.

But I think all the British fans were in a big cluster at Amsterdam and therefore there was a pretty good atmosphere in the stadium. The one that was really a damp squib (literally) was Vojens in 1988, where the bus took the wrong turning, got there less than a hour before the meeting and we ended up stood in a big puddle!  Vojens wasn't fit for a World Final.  Never gone back there again!  And then you had Munich, which was a magnificent stadium, had the perfect result for us Oxford fans BUT it wasn't really racing was it?

Amsterdam was my favourite of the foreign finals that I attended (there was also Gothenburg in 1991). It was great that it wasn't 20 heats and then bang, it was over. It's no coincidence, that when I started going to Assen, I continued going for a good few years. Again, you were getting two meetings rather than one (three if you included the international meeting on the Friday. featuring the best non-Grand Prix riders), and that's always an attraction to visiting fans.

Maybe the two-day final should have been repeated somewhere like Gothenburg or Wroclaw and then fans would have got a real feel of how well it worked.

Edited September 1, 2020 by lucifer sam

[iris123]

1 hour ago, RobMcCaffery said:

After Norden in 83 anywhere was a palace although the Germans did try their best to 'top' it. 

Sadly, you aren't right. Since the GP's have got going Norden does seem like a palace compared to some of the tracks that have hosted a GP, and in some cases more than 1

[Lioness]

18 hours ago, chunky said:

Yesterday wasn't the greatest race, but I still love to watch F1.

I think I must be the only person to have fallen out of love with F1!  I am very much in a minority though.  If there is one thing that most other sports can learn from F1 it is what a difference you can make with a good marketing strategy, good promotion, and making it appeal to the younger masses and the media