Wroclaw GP`s 1 and 2 Friday and Saturday 28th and 29th August

[Gunner85]

5 hours ago, iainb said:

What wasn't a guaranteed climax about last year's GP's, whoever won the final won the GP, simples

Except that winning the final guarantees you the most points as the winner of the GP.

[IainB]

39 minutes ago, Gunner85 said:

Except that winning the final guarantees you the most points as the winner of the GP.

we all know that, so they should have reverted to the old knock out formula

[lucifer sam]

2 hours ago, mikebv said:

Re the points system. .

Should do a D Final, C Final, B Final and an A..

Keep it simple, top four to A Final, next four to B Final etc..

That way it rewards the best riders on the night for their performance v their counterparts, and the commentators can explain to those watching that each race counts to the riders final qualifying position..

25 to the winner, 20 to second, 18 and then 16 to the A Final riders

14, 13, 12, 11 to the next four..

9,8,7,6 to the next four

And 4,3,2,1 to the D Final riders..

Two points difference per final to reward those who qualify for the C, B and A Finals..

And a big points tally to the rider who wins a GP, (to reflect that hugh achievement)..

And the more GP wins a rider gets the more the likelihood he will win the World Title...

Which is how it should be..

And the rider who crosses the line first in the Final scores the most points, 

Which is what the FIM want..

It would also keep most riders in with a chance of either going "up" a Final or dropping "down" a Final going into their last rides, and therefore potentially meaning a big swing in their final points tally (eg first in a C Final or last in a D would be an eight points difference), so should make for some great racing..

 

The exact format and scoring for 1996 and 1997.

[Kedavra]

1 hour ago, OveFundinFan said:

Just seen the result of the F1 GP, the top 6 finished in the same order as they started.  What a difference between boring F1 and Speedway GP which is packed with excitement.

Oh man you've just absolutely spoilt the highlights for me haha! Spoiler alert required in future I reckon. Sounds like a turd race so you might've saved me an hour 

[mikebv]

8 minutes ago, lucifer sam said:

The exact format and scoring for 1996 and 1997.

Great minds.....

It would tick a lot of their boxes...

Why was it changed? 

Presume there was a flaw in the cunning plan?

Personally can't see one as it would deliver the winner getting the most points, and four hard fought final races...

[lucifer sam]

38 minutes ago, mikebv said:

Great minds.....

It would tick a lot of their boxes...

Why was it changed? 

Presume there was a flaw in the cunning plan?

Personally can't see one as it would deliver the winner getting the most points, and four hard fought final races...

It was changed to the knockout formula in 1998, when they extended the series to 21-22 riders (plus 2-3 wildcards).

It was also open to manipulation, with riders dropping points in the final outing to prevent another rider taking part in the A Final.  That's what was good about the "every point counts" scoring system - it cut manipulation almost completely out. 

[mikebv]

5 minutes ago, lucifer sam said:

It was changed to the knockout formula in 1998, when they extended the series to 21-22 riders (plus 2-3 wildcards).

It was also open to manipulation, with riders dropping points in the final outing to prevent another rider taking part in the A Final.  That's what was good about the "every point counts" scoring system - it cut manipulation almost completely out. 

Any system is open to rider manipulation and it can easily exist in the 'every point counts' system..

Riders could throw away race points to let other 'no threat' riders qualify for the top eight at the expense of riders who might beat them to the title..

For me, it would be better to have a full qualifications system for four finals than the current half and half differing process for the top eight and bottom eight that we have now..

Keeps it simple for the fans..

 

[Terry]

Hamill, Hancock and Ermolenko 'recruiting' Mark Loram to keep Nielsen out of the A final at Vojens 96 must be the biggest manipulation in World Championship history.

You had to admire the yanks though, they played it beautifully, and did poor old Hans up like a kipper!

[fatface]

Great racing - tick

Flawed scoring - tick

But the other takeaway from this weekend is having GPs back to back on Friday and Saturday nights makes perfect sense going forward.

In terms of practically, financially and competitively. We all know it's a costly job and a half putting these events on, particularly for the one-off tracks. So, why not just do it twice over the weekend from 2021 onwards - offering better value for the punter, spreading costs thinner for the organisers, even greater exposure for sponsors, double the content for media? Have a small practice on a Friday morning and crack on into the racing for Friday night.

From a riders perspective, it gives ample chance for everyone to get something out of the weekend. Any rider struggling with set up on Friday, has a chance to come back wiser on Saturday and potentially, an even more competitive meeting. From a punter's perspective too, you could get a "double discount" for both nights and I think most would go for it.

Every GP I've been to - Cardiff, Prague, Daugvapils, Lonigo, Torun Krsko, Bydgoszcz - has consisted of a very enjoyable Friday night p** up looking forward to the next night. But would I rather have been sniffing the fumes and seeing 23 races? Damn right! 

Edited August 30, 2020 by falcace

[davidncohen]

From what I saw of the highlights, a thoroughly enjoyable Grand Prix, and I agree that having 2 meetings in one weekend might just be worth carrying forward into future years.

[lucifer sam]

10 minutes ago, falcace said:

Great racing - tick

Flawed scoring - tick

But the other takeaway from this weekend is having GPs back to back on Friday and Saturday nights makes perfect sense going forward.

In terms of practically, financially and competitively. We all know it's a costly job and a half putting these events on, particularly for the one-off tracks. So, why not just do it twice over the weekend from 2021 onwards - offering better value for the punter, spreading costs thinner for the organisers, even greater exposure for sponsors, double the content for media? Have a small practice on a Friday morning and crack on into the racing for Friday night.

From a riders perspective, it gives ample chance for everyone to get something out of the weekend. Any rider struggling with set up on Friday, has a chance to come back wiser on Saturday and potentially, an even more competitive meeting. From a punter's perspective too, you could get a "double discount" for both nights and I think most would go for it.

Every GP I've been to - Cardiff, Prague, Daugvapils, Lonigo, Torun Krsko, Bydgoszcz - has consisted of a very enjoyable Friday night p** up looking forward to the next night. But would I rather have been sniffing the fumes and seeing 23 races? Damn right! 

It does make an awful lot of sense.

I never understood all the negativity over the two-day 1987 World Final. It was the first time we'd travelled abroad for a final and loved that it was over two days rather than one, and we got to see 40 races instead of 20.

[enotian]

1 hour ago, mikebv said:

For me, it would be better to have a full qualifications system for four finals than the current half and half differing process for the top eight and bottom eight that we have now..

Keeps it simple for the fans..

 

How about 5 additional heats? Top 3 straight to the A Final proceeded by 4 heats of winner stays on.  Starting with 16th to 13th, the winner of which progresses to heat 22 against 12th to 10th and so on until the winner of heat 24 joins the top 3 in the A Final.

Effectively you could finish 16th after heat 20 and still win the meeting.  The traditionalist/purists will love it!!!

[Grachan]

1 hour ago, lucifer sam said:

It does make an awful lot of sense.

I never understood all the negativity over the two-day 1987 World Final. It was the first time we'd travelled abroad for a final and loved that it was over two days rather than one, and we got to see 40 races instead of 20.

I think the main problem with it was that it was in Amsterdam in a three-quarters empty stadium.

[Mark]

2 hours ago, falcace said:

Great racing - tick

Flawed scoring - tick

But the other takeaway from this weekend is having GPs back to back on Friday and Saturday nights makes perfect sense going forward.

In terms of practically, financially and competitively. We all know it's a costly job and a half putting these events on, particularly for the one-off tracks. So, why not just do it twice over the weekend from 2021 onwards - offering better value for the punter, spreading costs thinner for the organisers, even greater exposure for sponsors, double the content for media? Have a small practice on a Friday morning and crack on into the racing for Friday night.

From a riders perspective, it gives ample chance for everyone to get something out of the weekend. Any rider struggling with set up on Friday, has a chance to come back wiser on Saturday and potentially, an even more competitive meeting. From a punter's perspective too, you could get a "double discount" for both nights and I think most would go for it.

Every GP I've been to - Cardiff, Prague, Daugvapils, Lonigo, Torun Krsko, Bydgoszcz - has consisted of a very enjoyable Friday night p** up looking forward to the next night. But would I rather have been sniffing the fumes and seeing 23 races? Damn right! 

Have to agree.     The money it costs to put on Cardiff yet the track is only used once.     Could easily have 2 GP's or even an international meeting.     Cardiff finishes at 8pm so those who enjoy a pint can have one.

[Tim G]

You may not get the crowds that you think you will if you hold 2 rounds at a track on consecutive days. 

I have been going to the Arenacross for a few years and it used to be one night in six different uk arenas on a Saturday night which were all near full capacity and the atmosphere was very good. They then switched it to six rounds in three arenas running on a Friday and Saturday night. Now the arenas are less than half full with spectators and the event is nowhere near as enjoyable as it once was as it has a flat atmosphere.

 If you had a Cardiff GP on a Friday you would be lucky to get 15k and the Saturday crowd would probably be lower than it normally is. I expect most people that go to Cardiff do a 200 mile plus round trip and wouldn’t do that two days running.

[PHILIPRISING]

9 hours ago, Tim G said:

You may not get the crowds that you think you will if you hold 2 rounds at a track on consecutive days. 

I have been going to the Arenacross for a few years and it used to be one night in six different uk arenas on a Saturday night which were all near full capacity and the atmosphere was very good. They then switched it to six rounds in three arenas running on a Friday and Saturday night. Now the arenas are less than half full with spectators and the event is nowhere near as enjoyable as it once was as it has a flat atmosphere.

 If you had a Cardiff GP on a Friday you would be lucky to get 15k and the Saturday crowd would probably be lower than it normally is. I expect most people that go to Cardiff do a 200 mile plus round trip and wouldn’t do that two days running.

PLUS the cost of an overnight stay ... works in Poland because each SGP there is drawing its crowd from the fan base already in the respective city. A two day event in Warsaw probably wouldn't work either.

[fatface]

11 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

It does make an awful lot of sense.

I never understood all the negativity over the two-day 1987 World Final. It was the first time we'd travelled abroad for a final and loved that it was over two days rather than one, and we got to see 40 races instead of 20.

Yes, I must say that in the one-off era though, I didn't think the two day worked well at all. And yes, I was at that final too. Saturday night crackled along (although was still no barnstormer) and Sunday felt very flat with nothing to race for for half the field.

I guess we'll have two perspectives on it anyway. I assume you were cheering Hans Nielsen to the title? I was cheering Chris Morton and Sunday was a dead duck. It might have been different if the the lower half of the field had something to ride for....like automatic qualification to the following year's final perhaps? But, that wouldn't have been in the spirit of the one-off either. 

By the way, I watched that final again on YouTube recently and was pleasantly surprised that some of the racing was quite decent. Also, Nielsen was a real cut above everyone else.

[IainB]

12 hours ago, falcace said:

Great racing - tick

Flawed scoring - tick

But the other takeaway from this weekend is having GPs back to back on Friday and Saturday nights makes perfect sense going forward.

In terms of practically, financially and competitively. We all know it's a costly job and a half putting these events on, particularly for the one-off tracks. So, why not just do it twice over the weekend from 2021 onwards - offering better value for the punter, spreading costs thinner for the organisers, even greater exposure for sponsors, double the content for media? Have a small practice on a Friday morning and crack on into the racing for Friday night.

From a riders perspective, it gives ample chance for everyone to get something out of the weekend. Any rider struggling with set up on Friday, has a chance to come back wiser on Saturday and potentially, an even more competitive meeting. From a punter's perspective too, you could get a "double discount" for both nights and I think most would go for it.

Every GP I've been to - Cardiff, Prague, Daugvapils, Lonigo, Torun Krsko, Bydgoszcz - has consisted of a very enjoyable Friday night p** up looking forward to the next night. But would I rather have been sniffing the fumes and seeing 23 races? Damn right! 

Makes sense for attending fans, not so sure for the non-attending fans and riders though, 3 of the 4 finalists at Wroclaw were the same on both nights

10 hours ago, Grachan said:

I think the main problem with it was that it was in Amsterdam in a three-quarters empty stadium.

or a quarter full 

[fatface]

9 hours ago, Tim G said:

You may not get the crowds that you think you will if you hold 2 rounds at a track on consecutive days. 

I have been going to the Arenacross for a few years and it used to be one night in six different uk arenas on a Saturday night which were all near full capacity and the atmosphere was very good. They then switched it to six rounds in three arenas running on a Friday and Saturday night. Now the arenas are less than half full with spectators and the event is nowhere near as enjoyable as it once was as it has a flat atmosphere.

 If you had a Cardiff GP on a Friday you would be lucky to get 15k and the Saturday crowd would probably be lower than it normally is. I expect most people that go to Cardiff do a 200 mile plus round trip and wouldn’t do that two days running.

That's an interesting point and a valid example you raise.

The devil is in the detail of this and it would require deeper market research than our musings. My suspicion is that the Arenacross crowd is more of a casual motorsports/entertainment crowd and the speedway crowd are much more committed fans of the sport. So, would the speedway fans be interested in the back to back option unlike the more transient Arenacross crowd? I suspect so, but like you, I don't know. That's where the market research is required. 

Again, only my suspicions, but I think the majority of Speedway GP goers make a weekend of it. One final point, I think's it's a mistake to make assumptions that speedway fans are similar to other motorsports fans. I think there is quite a distinction, with a lot of speedway fans (I'd suggest the majority) having little or no interest in other motorsport, so findings from wider motorsport are not always applicable to speedway.

So, I think you are right that back to back GPs shouldn't be implemented blindly from 2021, but nor should the idea be dismissed. Worth looking into though  

Edited August 31, 2020 by falcace

[fatface]

40 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

PLUS the cost of an overnight stay ... works in Poland because each SGP there is drawing its crowd from the fan base already in the respective city. A two day event in Warsaw probably wouldn't work either.

Hmm...but doesn't a quickly sold-out stadium suggest there is a bigger market out there?