Technik Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 I was at the World Long Track final at New Plymouth - New Zealand & went along to Ivan Maugers pre-event presentation at a local hotel. From my understanding of his statements he was not a fan of the GP series & much prefered the one off system. He said he liked the idea of waking up on new years day with a motor cycle, a licence to race & a dream to be the World Champion at the end of the year & that would not be possible in the GP series. He also dismissed finals saying that if you score full points in your 5 rides beating all the other racers in the event why should you risk loosing the title in a winner take all final. This statement was to carry a heavy weight as Kelvin Tatum led the championship going into the final, He was leading the final until his bike failed entering the final lap & he was passed by his greatest rival Gerd Riss who went on to win the race & the title while KT hunched over his machine on the infield. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 I've never liked the GP's, but this is probably an age thing. I miss the excitement and drama of a one off world final. Lady luck sometimes played a massive part on the outcome. GP's can never replicate that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 18 minutes ago, cityrebel said: I've never liked the GP's, but this is probably an age thing. I miss the excitement and drama of a one off world final. Lady luck sometimes played a massive part on the outcome. GP's can never replicate that. Should luck decide a World Champion? As a professional sportsman, I know my opinion... What I think is funny is that everybody hates playoffs in leagues, but the old World Final system was no different. When I look back, it's incredible how flawed and unfair the system was - the WHOLE system. We didn't complain because we didn't think about it. It was all we had, and it was all we knew. Thing is, our memories are very selective. You and I - and many others on here - knew how wonderful it was to attend a Wembley World Final. I never went to Ullevi for speedway, but I have walked the track, and I can imagine that was a great atmosphere. Not another Wembley, obviously, but fantastic all the same. Except for the rain, of course... We sit here and supposedly think of what's it's like to be at a World Final. WRONG! What we think of is what it WAS like to be at a World Final. I have been to a number of post-81 World Finals, and while I enjoyed them, NONE came anywhere close to Wembley. If we had World Finals now, everybody would sit here whining how crappy it is, how piss-poor the racing is, how Poland get preferential treatment when it should be us Brits, how the atmosphere is terrible, that it's b*llocks that so-and-so isn't in the final because of an e/f, how HE won because of luck, etc... Life moves on. Just because "we always did it that way" doesn't mean it was the right way. Then was then, now is now. Yes, I "preferred" the World Finals as an attendee, but I fully understand that the GP system is better, and fairer, to the riders. I love the fact that we have a bunch of meetings with virtually ALL the top riders in the world in action. The old system NEVER provided that, and it was never designed to. What I do agree with Ivan on is that having everything decided the year before takes away something. I can see the Top 8 qualifying from the previous year (that's fine), but I think that we could find a way to complete the field from a series of qualifiers at the start of the current season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, chunky said: Should luck decide a World Champion? As a professional sportsman, I know my opinion... What I think is funny is that everybody hates playoffs in leagues, but the old World Final system was no different. When I look back, it's incredible how flawed and unfair the system was - the WHOLE system. We didn't complain because we didn't think about it. It was all we had, and it was all we knew. Thing is, our memories are very selective. You and I - and many others on here - knew how wonderful it was to attend a Wembley World Final. I never went to Ullevi for speedway, but I have walked the track, and I can imagine that was a great atmosphere. Not another Wembley, obviously, but fantastic all the same. Except for the rain, of course... We sit here and supposedly think of what's it's like to be at a World Final. WRONG! What we think of is what it WAS like to be at a World Final. I have been to a number of post-81 World Finals, and while I enjoyed them, NONE came anywhere close to Wembley. If we had World Finals now, everybody would sit here whining how crappy it is, how piss-poor the racing is, how Poland get preferential treatment when it should be us Brits, how the atmosphere is terrible, that it's b*llocks that so-and-so isn't in the final because of an e/f, how HE won because of luck, etc... Life moves on. Just because "we always did it that way" doesn't mean it was the right way. Then was then, now is now. Yes, I "preferred" the World Finals as an attendee, but I fully understand that the GP system is better, and fairer, to the riders. I love the fact that we have a bunch of meetings with virtually ALL the top riders in the world in action. The old system NEVER provided that, and it was never designed to. What I do agree with Ivan on is that having everything decided the year before takes away something. I can see the Top 8 qualifying from the previous year (that's fine), but I think that we could find a way to complete the field from a series of qualifiers at the start of the current season. Life's all about opinions Steve. I find the GP's boring, but i appreciate a lot of people love them. I really enjoyed attending the British youth championship at Scunthorpe last Sunday, but some fans wouldn't cross the road to watch it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, chunky said: I think that is a little harsh on Mucha, Steve. While he never reached the heights (or the fame) of some of the other Poles, he had already established himself as one rider who wasn't out of his depth at World level. He was also unusual in the fact that he was quite at home on smaller British tracks. When you saw him, he already had two World Finals under his belt, with 7 points at Wembley in 1969 (including a defeat of Briggo), 6 points at Chorzow the following year (including a defeat of Olsen), and a top-scoring 6pts for Poland at Wembley in the 1970 WTC Final. Mucha was one of the steadiest and most consistent (and certainly under-rated) of that that batch of Poles in the late 60's and early 70's. Of course you're right Chunky...I was a bit harsh but it's just that those who were present that glorious afternoon expected the star rider from Poland to have been either Plech, Jancarz or Waloszek but Mucha out-classed them all! Still a mystery why Antoni Woryna wasn't present though? Edited August 13, 2020 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, cityrebel said: Life's all about opinions Steve. I find the GP's boring, but i appreciate a lot of people love them. I really enjoyed attending the British youth championship at Scunthorpe last Sunday, but some fans wouldn't cross the road to watch it. Sone GP's ARE boring. So were some World Finals. So was a lot of the other speedway we watched. Last year's Wroclaw GP was the best meeting I have ever seen. There have been some other fantastic GP's as well. Now you've hit on something else with that last paragraph, and it actually indicates the problem with speedway - both for speedway fans and non- speedway fans. As a speedway fan, I am happy to watch ANY speedway, regardless of the level, and regardless of big names. The trouble is that people will often find something boring because they WANT to find it boring. You say you find the GP's "are boring". Does that mean you find ALL GP's boring? Does that mean you find a speedway meeting boring BECAUSE it is a GP? Did you watch Wroclaw? If so, did you find it boring, and why? Some speedway fans are only interested in watching the top boys. I know you are not like that, but there is a lot more to speedway than half a dozen riders. Some find team racing boring. Some find individual racing boring. It doesn't matter who is racing, or who they are racing for, it's SPEEDWAY! Please don't think I'm having a dig at you, Tony, because I'm not, but I am just wondering why - if indeed you did - find Wroclaw (and other great GP's) boring. Finally, as I said, this also seems to afflict non-speedway people. They say speedway is boring because they WANT to find it boring, and/or have this pre-conceived notion that it is boring. Edited August 14, 2020 by chunky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, chunky said: Sone GP's ARE boring. So were some World Finals. So was a lot of the other speedway we watched. Last year's Wroclaw GP was the best meeting I have ever seen. There have been some other fantastic GP's as well. Now you've hit on something else with that last paragraph, and it actually indicates the problem with speedway - both for speedway fans and non- speedway fans. As a speedway fan, I am happy to watch ANY speedway, regardless of the level, and regardless of big names. The trouble is that people will often find something boring because they WANT to find it boring. You say you find the GP's "are boring". Does that mean you find ALL GP's boring? Does that mean you find a speedway meeting BECAUSE it is boring? Did you watch Wroclaw? If so, did you find it boring, and why? Some speedway fans are only interested in watching the top boys. I know you are not like that, but there is a lot more to speedway than half a dozen riders. Some find team racing boring. Some find individual racing boring. It doesn't matter who is racing, or who they are racing for, it's SPEEDWAY! Please don't think I'm having a dig at you, Tony, because I'm not, but I am just wondering why - if indeed you did - find Wroclaw (and other great GP's) boring. Finally, as I said, this also seems to afflict non-speedway people. They say speedway is boring because they WANT to find it boring, and/or have this pre-conceived notion that it is boring. I tape every GP Steve, but i never get round to watching them. It's the concept that bores me. I haven't watched any of the streamed Polish League meetings. I've only ever been interested in domestic league racing. I've been to plenty of overseas speedway venues in the past, but i knocked that on the head years ago. Prehaps it's because I'm too stuck in my ways, like a lot of speedway fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 Just now, cityrebel said: Prehaps it's because I'm too stuck in my ways, like a lot of speedway fans. Nail on the head, mate! That's exactly what I was getting at! As I said, on the face of it, I "prefer" World Finals because of me going to Wembley, but as a "speedway fan", I want to be open to ALL speedway. Sure, some meetings I watch are crap, and I will say it. However, PLEASE do me a favour and watch last year's Wroclaw GP. It had everything. For old people like me and norbold to say how incredible it was, that should tell you something. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, chunky said: Nail on the head, mate! That's exactly what I was getting at! As I said, on the face of it, I "prefer" World Finals because of me going to Wembley, but as a "speedway fan", I want to be open to ALL speedway. Sure, some meetings I watch are crap, and I will say it. However, PLEASE do me a favour and watch last year's Wroclaw GP. It had everything. For old people like me and norbold to say how incredible it was, that should tell you something. To be honest with you Steve, I'm a live sport man. I don't really enjoy watching televised Football or Speedway. I'd much rather go and watch a live event. If the GP was held at a decent track like the NSS, I'd probably go. After 10 visits to the poor temporary track at Cardiff, i decided I'd had enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, cityrebel said: To be honest with you Steve, I'm a live sport man. I don't really enjoy watching televised Football or Speedway. I'd much rather go and watch a live event. If the GP was held at a decent track like the NSS, I'd probably go. After 10 visits to the poor temporary track at Cardiff, i decided I'd had enough. Who isn't? Sometimes you have to take what you can get... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, chunky said: Who isn't? Sometimes you have to take what you can get... That's why i went to Scunny on Sunday. My 2nd live meeting of the year. I'm hoping for 3rd! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, cityrebel said: To be honest with you Steve, I'm a live sport man. I don't really enjoy watching televised Football or Speedway. I'd much rather go and watch a live event. If the GP was held at a decent track like the NSS, I'd probably go. After 10 visits to the poor temporary track at Cardiff, i decided I'd had enough. Honestly CITY you have totally knocked it on the head spot on,.I i have only been to, Cardiff four times .I don't want to go anymore well overrated. OVERPRICED fans being ripped off certainy track wise Forget Cardiff.!!! Edited August 14, 2020 by Sidney the robin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 I was a fan of the GP system when it started, but I've started to tire of it the last few years. It's not so much the one off world final that I miss, more the qualifiers along the way. It was always fascinating during the last round of heats trying to second guess which riders who were 'safe' were possibly going to do a fellow countryman or club mate who were desperate for points a 'favour'. Fair enough it was cheating but it just seemed part of the occasion in those days. Speaking of race fixing, something has always bothered me about the infamous 1982 Overseas final 'scandal.' Bruce Penhall has mentioned in print on a few occasions that he wasn't happy (he even used the word furious in his autobiography) with the finishing order of that race, he said the other riders didn't stick to the agreed order. I don't get what he means. Obviously Sigalos had to win as he was only on 5pts and with Kelly and Shawn both on 6 it didn't really matter who came second, one of them was going to be joining PC and Les in the run-off...The only way I can see of guaranteeing all three qualifying would have been if the Morans had dead - heated for second and scored 7.5 points each..Although I can't imagine that's what Bruce meant! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: Honestly CITY you have totally knocked it on the head spot on,.I i have only been to, Cardiff four times .I don't want to go to more times well overrated. OVERPRICED fans being ripped off certainy track wise Forget Cardiff.!!! I also went to the two at Hackney Sid, plus one each at both Bradford and Coventry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Terry said: I was a fan of the GP system when it started, but I've started to tire of it the last few years. It's not so much the one off world final that I miss, more the qualifiers along the way. It was always fascinating during the last round of heats trying to second guess which riders who were 'safe' were possibly going to do a fellow countryman or club mate who were desperate for points a 'favour'. Fair enough it was cheating but it just seemed part of the occasion in those days. Speaking of race fixing, something has always bothered me about the infamous 1982 Overseas final 'scandal.' Bruce Penhall has mentioned in print on a few occasions that he wasn't happy (he even used the word furious in his autobiography) with the finishing order of that race, he said the other riders didn't stick to the agreed order. I don't get what he means. Obviously Sigalos had to win as he was only on 5pts and with Kelly and Shawn both on 6 it didn't really matter who came second, one of them was going to be joining PC and Les in the run-off...The only way I can see of guaranteeing all three qualifying would have been if the Morans had dead - heated for second and scored 7.5 points each..Although I can't imagine that's what Bruce meant! I was there that day, it certainly was a surreal moment. The golden boy couldn't believe the crowds reaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, cityrebel said: I was there that day, it certainly was a surreal moment. The golden boy couldn't believe the crowds reaction. Apparently Kelly Moran was reduced to tears back in the pits by the crowds reaction. On the flip side, I don't think I'd ever seen Kenny Carter grin so much on the victory parade! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said: Honestly CITY you have totally knocked it on the head spot on,.I i have only been to, Cardiff four times .I don't want to go to more times well overrated. OVERPRICED fans being ripped off certainy track wise Forget Cardiff.!!! I went to Cardiff in 2003, I think it was, when Nicki Pedersen won. Not that impressed I seem to recall. I used to enjoy all my speedway (second halves included) but I guess once I moved away from Oxford I got out of the habit as many do and just have my memories and vast collection of DVDs. Never subscribed to SKY so never got to watch many meetings that they covered...GP's or otherwise. Edited August 13, 2020 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 hour ago, cityrebel said: I also went to the two at Hackney Sid, plus one each at both Bradford and Coventry. I enjoyed my visit to Coventry (except that Dugard won!), but the trip to Hackney wasn't great as we couldn't see sh!t... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted August 14, 2020 Report Share Posted August 14, 2020 7 hours ago, chunky said: I enjoyed my visit to Coventry (except that Dugard won!), but the trip to Hackney wasn't great as we couldn't see sh!t... The Gollob v Boyce punch up was tremendous entertainment! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted August 14, 2020 Report Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, cityrebel said: The Gollob v Boyce punch up was tremendous entertainment! Was that on par with the WILKIE( RIP bless him) and Cowland incident in the Belle Vue v Leicester encounter.? Edited August 14, 2020 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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