Grand Central Posted August 12, 2020 Report Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, steve roberts said: I actually saw Jerzy ride...well as far as the first bend at Cowley when he got caught up under the fence and that was the last we saw of him. Unbeknown to us we were witnessing the future World Champion when he lifted the crown later that very same season! Just about every World Champion there has ever been will have had a first bend crash at some point in their career, perhaps even in the very year in which they go on to win the title. Only Jerzy ever gets lampooned for doing so. Edited August 12, 2020 by Grand Central Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted August 12, 2020 Report Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) I do think from 1968 / 1974, / Ivan would of dominated a series I, still think Briggs and others would of won certain other rounds though. 1984 onwards Nielsen with Gundo sniffing about Gundersen was better had his number certainly on a one off meting Hans would of loved a GP series still think Erik would of liked a series format ( ie knowing he could beat the Great Hans. Edited August 12, 2020 by Sidney the robin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wessex Wanderer Posted August 12, 2020 Report Share Posted August 12, 2020 Absolutely no way could you discount Ronnie Moore. If anything he was the most consistent of the “big five” not just meeting to meeting but race to race. Also remember he started a bit before the others so might very well have had 2-3 titles before Fundin, Craven and Briggs really got started at top world level. And he didn’t have things easy before either with the likes of Jack Young around. These discussions are always so enjoyable. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted August 12, 2020 Report Share Posted August 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, Wessex Wanderer said: Absolutely no way could you discount Ronnie Moore. If anything he was the most consistent of the “big five” not just meeting to meeting but race to race. Also remember he started a bit before the others so might very well have had 2-3 titles before Fundin, Craven and Briggs really got started at top world level. And he didn’t have things easy before either with the likes of Jack Young around. These discussions are always so enjoyable. Mirac was better than Ivan/ Barry Wessex ???? both riders admit that what a trio ???? take your pick who would you pick Wessex hand on heart hard choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 12, 2020 Report Share Posted August 12, 2020 56 minutes ago, Grand Central said: Just about every World Champion there has ever been will have had a first bend crash at some point in their career, perhaps even in the very year in which they go on to win the title. Only Jerzy ever gets lampooned for doing so. More than likely...but having seen him at Cowley that same year (riding as a reserve if I recall) it came as a shock when I heard the result given out over the radio that September afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted August 12, 2020 Report Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, steve roberts said: More than likely...but having seen him at Cowley that same year (riding as a reserve if I recall) it came as a shock when I heard the result given out over the radio that September afternoon. All in hindsight now Steve but Hans against Erik now in combat would be awesome .Two great champions going against each other both at the peak of there powers but it was spoiled by Erik's dreadful injury both LEGEND riders. After a number of years got to realise just how good Nielsen was doubted it myself hold my hands up but his brilliance over a period persuaded me. Edited August 12, 2020 by Sidney the robin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 12, 2020 Report Share Posted August 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: All in hindsight now Steve but Hans against Erik now in combat would be awesome .Two great champions going against each other both at the peak of there powers but it was spoiled by Erik's dreadful injury both LEGEND riders. After a number of years got to realise just how good Nielsen was doubted it myself hold my hands up but his brilliance over a period persuaded me. I saw many classic encounters involving them both over the years Sid...both at Oxford & Cradley Heath as well as on the World Stage. Great competitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 12, 2020 Report Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Wessex Wanderer said: Absolutely no way could you discount Ronnie Moore. If anything he was the most consistent of the “big five” not just meeting to meeting but race to race. Also remember he started a bit before the others so might very well have had 2-3 titles before Fundin, Craven and Briggs really got started at top world level. And he didn’t have things easy before either with the likes of Jack Young around. These discussions are always so enjoyable. I'm pleased I saw Ronnie ride during his last full season in the UK. A sublime 14 points at Poole. Out of the three I'm only repeating what others have said (Briggo amongst them) in that Ronnie was the most talented. Imagine if he had ridden throughout the sixties what he may achieved and then to come back and still be a force? Edited August 12, 2020 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wessex Wanderer Posted August 12, 2020 Report Share Posted August 12, 2020 36 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: Mirac was better than Ivan/ Barry Wessex ???? both riders admit that what a trio ???? take your pick who would you pick Wessex hand on heart hard choice. No. Not saying that just saying you cannot discount him. Particularly when comparing him to Ivan you have to take into account that Ronnie had been a top world class rider for some 15-16 years before Ian won his first World Final. For me the best three ever riders have been Fundin, Mauger and Rickardsson. But Ronnie absolutely deserves his place among the legends. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted August 12, 2020 Report Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Wessex Wanderer said: No. Not saying that just saying you cannot discount him. Particularly when comparing him to Ivan you have to take into account that Ronnie had been a top world class rider for some 15-16 years before Ian won his first World Final. For me the best three ever riders have been Fundin, Mauger and Rickardsson. But Ronnie absolutely deserves his place among the legends. Great choice different eras Wessex i don't agree but hey I respect your viewpoint bigtime and loads would agree with you to.!!!! Edited August 12, 2020 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted August 12, 2020 Report Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, BOBBATH said: Just going back a bit further- I reckon Ove Fundin would have dominated in the fifties and sixties under a GP system- how do you reckon he would have stacked up re Moore, Briggo and Craven under such a system. Do you in fact think those three could ever have topped Ove as World Champ under GP- think Ove tended to be the most consistent over a whole season . I do think however that its unfortunate that its possible to become World Champ under GP without winning a single GP meeting (e.g. Mark Loram). Between 1956 and 1963, Ove Fundin was ranked at no. 1 in the world in the Speedway Star rankings every year except 1958, when he was second to Barry Briggs. Peter Craven made second place only once, in 1962, and third three times. Ronnie Moore was second on three occasions. Briggo was second just once but then came into his own 1964-1966 as Fundin began to decline. It is, of course a field for endless speculation and you can never know what special factors might influence any particular Grand Prix season, e.g. which tracks would have been used during the season, but simply going by historical records and, from 1960 onwards, my own personal observation of the leading contenders, I would say Fundin could well have won the Grand Prix every year from 1956-1963, with Briggo winning 1964-1966. Two caveats - Briggo might have won in 1958 and Bjorn Knutson in 1965. Personally, I really couldn't see Peter Craven winning a Grand Prix Season, but wouldn't rule out Ronnie Moore, especially in the 1950s. But then things rarely work out as you expect them to! Edited August 13, 2020 by norbold 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted August 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 7 hours ago, Grand Central said: Just about every World Champion there has ever been will have had a first bend crash at some point in their career, perhaps even in the very year in which they go on to win the title. Only Jerzy ever gets lampooned for doing so. Come on mate -are you kidding, no way could he have won under a GP system-ditto Egon. I would rank many Poles worthier and ahead of Jerzy. In no particular order: Waloszek, Woryna , Podlecki, Wygenda, Jancarz, Pogozelski, Plech, Stancl. Any thoughts from anybody?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted August 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 hour ago, norbold said: Between 1956 and 1963, Ove Fundin was ranked at no. 1 in the world in the Speedway Star rankings every year except 1958, when he was second to Barry Briggs. Peter Craven made second place only once, in 1962, and third three times. Ronnie Moore was second on three occasions. Briggo was second just once but then came into his own 1964-1966 as Fundin began to decline. It is, of course a field for endless speculation and you can never know what special factors might influence any particular Grand Prix season, e.g. which tracks would have been used during the season, but simply going by historical records and, from 1960 onwards and my own personal observation of the leading contenders, I would say Fundin could well have won the Grand Prix every year from 1956-1963, with Briggo winning 1964-1966. Two caveats - Briggo might have won in 1958 and Bjorn Knutson in 1965. Personally, I really couldn't see Peter Craven winning a Grand Prix Season, but wouldn't rule out Ronnie Moore, especially in the 1950s. But then things rarely work out as you expect them to! Do you reckon Olsen would have ever been Champ under a GP system? I agree with norbold here particularly re Peter Craven.. Think you are being generous to Briggo re 1958 but not sure about Knutson in 1965- but maybe he could have done it in 1964 as well as 1965. As you say Norman it's a field of endless speculation-but isn't that what makes all these threads and comments so fascinating-many great comments from other enthusiasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted August 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 Another thought- Could Sverre have done it in say 1963?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 hours ago, BOBBATH said: Come on mate -are you kidding, no way could he have won under a GP system-ditto Egon. I would rank many Poles worthier and ahead of Jerzy. In no particular order: Waloszek, Woryna , Podlecki, Wygenda, Jancarz, Pogozelski, Plech, Stancl. Any thoughts from anybody?? I think you're reading WAY too much into the statement, Bob. What Grand Central is saying is that a lot of people remember Szczakiel for a first bend crash at Oxford (rather than for his achievements), but never mock any other riders for their crashes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 6 hours ago, BOBBATH said: Come on mate -are you kidding, no way could he have won under a GP system-ditto Egon. I would rank many Poles worthier and ahead of Jerzy. In no particular order: Waloszek, Woryna , Podlecki, Wygenda, Jancarz, Pogozelski, Plech, Stancl. Any thoughts from anybody?? The meeting at Cowley between Australia and Poland during 1973 left a great impression on me...the Poles were a relatively unknown mysterious force one only read about. I recall Zenon Plech's 'up and over' crash and was quickly withdrawn from the rest of the meeting as he was highly regarded by the authorities as Poland's great white hope at the forthcoming World Final. Strangely Antoni Woryna was not chosen to ride that afternoon after showing useful form earlier in the season riding for Poole? Despite the team having many recoconised stars in their line up the rider that came up smelling of roses on that particular afternoon was the little known Jan Mucha who topped scored with eleven I seem to remember. It was also the biggest attendance seen at Cowley for years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGT Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 Great days when the touring sides toured British tracks. I think Brum in the 70s at various times had Olching, young Poland, young Sweden and a Swedish club (maybe) at various times. Brilliant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted August 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 22 hours ago, Grand Central said: Just about every World Champion there has ever been will have had a first bend crash at some point in their career, perhaps even in the very year in which they go on to win the title. Only Jerzy ever gets lampooned for doing so. Come on mate -are you kidding, no way could he have won under a GP system-ditto Egon. I would rank many Poles worthier and ahead of Jerzy. In no particular order: Waloszek, Woryna , Podlecki, Wygenda, Jancarz, Pogozelski, Plech, Stancl. Any thoughts from anybody?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted August 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 You are right Chunky-my mistake mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted August 13, 2020 Report Share Posted August 13, 2020 8 hours ago, steve roberts said: Despite the team having many recoconised stars in their line up the rider that came up smelling of roses on that particular afternoon was the little known Jan Mucha who topped scored with eleven I seem to remember. I think that is a little harsh on Mucha, Steve. While he never reached the heights (or the fame) of some of the other Poles, he had already established himself as one rider who wasn't out of his depth at World level. He was also unusual in the fact that he was quite at home on smaller British tracks. When you saw him, he already had two World Finals under his belt, with 7 points at Wembley in 1969 (including a defeat of Briggo), 6 points at Chorzow the following year (including a defeat of Olsen), and a top-scoring 6pts for Poland at Wembley in the 1970 WTC Final. Mucha was one of the steadiest and most consistent (and certainly under-rated) of that that batch of Poles in the late 60's and early 70's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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