Mauger and Grand Prix system

[BOBBATH]

Was reading the excellent Hans Nielsen thread and how he would have done well in a GP world (which I would agree with). Then I got thinking about Ivan and how he would have done if the GP system had started , say , in 1968. I wonder if Ivan would have been World Champ in 68,69,70, 71 ,72 right thru till about 78. One exception, I seem to remember that Anders MIchanek in the year before he actually became  Champ in 1974 was winning everything. So maybe Anders could have been a GP champ in 1973.. Not sure Ole could have ever won under a GP system-what say other forumlanders. Again to all- I really enjoy  the threads that are posted here-brings back many memories.

[steve roberts]

I think that Ivan would have dominated the series with a few interventions in between. As you say Anders was awesome in 1973 and personally I feel he would have won if it had been run under a GP system. One-off World Finals were not neccessarily 'easier' to win in my opinion and required a different approach and/or mindset...and an element of luck (either good or bad!)

[FAST GATER]

Ivan is IMO the greatest rider of all time with Hans a close second  both  would have dominated the series at the respective times of their career's .I still think that Ivan set the bar for all those that have come after him  his influence was nothing but positive in attitude ,machinery  ,personal well being and team player (when it suited ) .

[Grachan]

As people say, Ivan and Hans would probably have dominated in a Grand Prix series when at their peak. To expect them to win every year is probably still pushing things a bit htough. Erik Gundersen certainly had the World Championship mentality. And riders like Olsen, Collins and, as stated, Michanek were definitely worthy World Champions.

Also, if ther had been a Grand Prix in place in the 1970s, Tommy Jansson wouldn't have been riding in a World Championship qualifier on 20 May 1976.

[steve roberts]

There was an interesting analysis in "Backtrack' some years ago when John Berry and Tony Mac went "head to head" and came up with their views as regards what may have been the outcome if the GP's had taken place in the 70's & 80's.

[salty]

I remember that feature, Steve, I'll have to dig it out. Having said that, it is just opinion. I think Ivan would have probably bagged more titles in the early 70's, but that would be counterbalanced by possibly not winning in '77 and'79? But who knows, riders tailored their approach to the format that was in place at the time and we'll never know how it would have looked under a GP system.

 

 

[Split]

It should be added that certain riders benefited massively from a one-off World Championship Final meeting. I think we would all agree that it's highly unlikely that either Jerzy Szczakiel or Egon Müller (and maybe others?) would ever have become world champions under a GP system.

[Grachan]

4 minutes ago, Split said:

It should be added that certain riders benefited massively from a one-off World Championship Final meeting. I think we would all agree that it's highly unlikely that either Jerzy Szczakiel or Egon Müller (and maybe others?) would ever have become world champions under a GP system.

Probably true. However, if Mark Loram had won a one-off final I'm sure many people would have said that he wouldn't have won under the Grand Prix system.

[BL65]

A brief look at 1968 reveals the following comparisons between Mauger and Briggs that year.

In all World Championship meetings up to and including the final, plus individual meetings on British tracks:
Ivan rode in 22 meetings, Barry rode in 15.
Ivan scored a total of 261 points for an average of 11.86 out of 15.00; Barry scored 182 for an average of 12.13 out of 15.00.

There were 9 meetings in which they competed against each other and in these:
Ivan scored 103 points, average 11.44 out of 15.00.  Barry scored 97, average 10.78.
Barry won the last two meetings of the season in which they both competed, The Laurels at Wimbledon and the BLRC at Belle Vue.  Ivan won 4 of the 9 meetings in which they met, all of them World Championship events, at Newcastle (QR), Wimbledon (British Final), West Ham (British Nordic Final) and Gothenburg (Final).

Ivan's average was deflated by his scores in meetings at Wimbledon (Internationale) 4 points, Hackney (Superama) 10, Wroclaw (European Final) 10, Leicester (East Midlands Open) 6, Coventry (Brandonapolis) 10, Wimbledon (The Laurels) 10 and Coatbridge (Scottish Open) 2.
Barry's lower scoring meetings were at West Ham (British Nordic Final) 6, Wroclaw (European Final) 9 and Leicester (East Midlands Open) 2 (after a first ride fall).

[steve roberts]

9 minutes ago, Grachan said:

Probably true. However, if Mark Loram had won a one-off final I'm sure many people would have said that he wouldn't have won under the Grand Prix system.

...and of course, as we know, Loram never managed to win a Final during his World Championship winning year but obviously did enough to accumulate the neccessary points to end up as overall champion.

[steve roberts]

25 minutes ago, Split said:

It should be added that certain riders benefited massively from a one-off World Championship Final meeting. I think we would all agree that it's highly unlikely that either Jerzy Szczakiel or Egon Müller (and maybe others?) would ever have become world champions under a GP system.

Which is why I think that winning a one-off Final wasn't perhaps as easy or straight forward as some would have us believe. The 1973 Final was a real old bizzare affair. Ivan by his own admission mis-calculated his move on Szczakiel and gifted it.  Olsen was head and shoulders above the rest at Wembley in 1972 but threw it away in one mis-judgement and Michanek as previously mentioned was the rider very much in form in 1973 but fell at the final hurdle. One ride often made the difference in becoming champion or not and there's two ways of looking at the two systems. It's an interesting comparison study and great for debate!

Edited August 12, 2020 by steve roberts

[fatface]

4 hours ago, Grachan said:

As people say, Ivan and Hans would probably have dominated in a Grand Prix series when at their peak. To expect them to win every year is probably still pushing things a bit htough. Erik Gundersen certainly had the World Championship mentality. And riders like Olsen, Collins and, as stated, Michanek were definitely worthy World Champions.

Also, if ther had been a Grand Prix in place in the 1970s, Tommy Jansson wouldn't have been riding in a World Championship qualifier on 20 May 1976.

It might be the ultimate fence sit, but beyond Muller and Szczakiel I can't see any one off World Champion who wouldn't have been capable of winning in a GP system (Havelock perhaps, but he was red hot in 92) and no GP World Champs that couldn't have taken a one off World Championship. The GP's certainly make sure the cream rises to the top, but the one-offs had a good record on that front too.

The different systems require a different approach, so whereas a riders would build towards September to be at their mechanical, mental and physical peak, they have to be consistently on it right from the start now. To pick two examples, riders like Mike Lee and Erik Gundersen could be in (relatively) patchy form at the start of the year, but be absolutely on it by the business end of the season in the one-off era. I don't doubt that both would have been much more "dialled in" (to borrow a fashionable term) from the get go under a GP system.

[BOBBATH]

Just going back a bit further- I reckon Ove Fundin would have dominated in the fifties and sixties under a GP system- how do you reckon he would have stacked up re Moore, Briggo and Craven under such a system. Do you in fact think those three could ever have topped Ove as World Champ under GP-  think Ove tended to be the most consistent over a  whole season . I do think however that its unfortunate that its possible to become World Champ under GP without winning a single GP meeting (e.g. Mark Loram). 

[steve roberts]

47 minutes ago, falcace said:

It might be the ultimate fence sit, but beyond Muller and Szczakiel I can't see any one off World Champion who wouldn't have been capable of winning in a GP system (Havelock perhaps, but he was red hot in 92) and no GP World Champs that couldn't have taken a one off World Championship. The GP's certainly make sure the cream rises to the top, but the one-offs had a good record on that front too.

The different systems require a different approach, so whereas a riders would build towards September to be at their mechanical, mental and physical peak, they have to be consistently on it right from the start now. To pick two examples, riders like Mike Lee and Erik Gundersen could be in (relatively) patchy form at the start of the year, but be absolutely on it by the business end of the season in the one-off era. I don't doubt that both would have been much more "dialled in" (to borrow a fashionable term) from the get go under a GP system.

So right. Dave Jessup dominated during the lead up to the 1980 World Final but Michael Lee produced his party piece and ended up champion.

[steve roberts]

34 minutes ago, BOBBATH said:

Just going back a bit further- I reckon Ove Fundin would have dominated in the fifties and sixties under a GP system- how do you reckon he would have stacked up re Moore, Briggo and Craven under such a system. Do you in fact think those three could ever have topped Ove as World Champ under GP-  think Ove tended to be the most consistent over a  whole season . I do think however that its unfortunate that its possible to become World Champ under GP without winning a single GP meeting (e.g. Mark Loram). 

Personally I think that Briggo and Fundin would have dominated with Peter Craven as a spoiler...but could one discount Ronnie Moore?

[BL65]

1 hour ago, BOBBATH said:

Just going back a bit further- I reckon Ove Fundin would have dominated in the fifties and sixties under a GP system- how do you reckon he would have stacked up re Moore, Briggo and Craven under such a system. Do you in fact think those three could ever have topped Ove as World Champ under GP-  think Ove tended to be the most consistent over a  whole season . I do think however that its unfortunate that its possible to become World Champ under GP without winning a single GP meeting (e.g. Mark Loram). 

Ronnie Moore won the world title in 1959 with a 15 point maximum.  Barry Briggs only competed in the final and three other individual events on British tracks that season, scoring 38 points at an average of 9.5 out of 15 per meeting.  Ronnie competed in 19 events, winning three and scoring 206 points at an average of 10.84.  Peter Craven won 9 out of 21 meetings, scoring 275 points at an average of 13.10.  He couldn't match Ove Fundin, who was first or first equal in 10 out of 16 meetings, scoring 223 points at an average of 13.94.  This could have been better but for an exclusion in one meeting where he won his other 4 races.

[chunky]

1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

Personally I think that Briggo and Fundin would have dominated with Peter Craven as a spoiler...but could one discount Ronnie Moore?

I don't think you could discount Knutson or Plechanov in the sixties...

[steve roberts]

11 minutes ago, chunky said:

I don't think you could discount Knutson or Plechanov in the sixties...

Again two riders I wished I had the opportunity of seeing ride! Sverre Harrfeldt was another. There was a rumour that he was to join Oxford in 1974 but it never materialised.

Edited August 12, 2020 by steve roberts

[Grand Central]

If the 1973 championship had been held in a similar fashion to that being implemented for 2020 then good old Jerzy Sczazakiel could have shown that he too could win over a grand prix format.

[steve roberts]

29 minutes ago, Grand Central said:

If the 1973 championship had been held in a similar fashion to that being implemented for 2020 then good old Jerzy Sczazakiel could have shown that he too could win over a grand prix format.

I actually saw Jerzy ride...well as far as the first bend at Cowley when he got caught up under the fence and that was the last we saw of him. Unbeknown to us we were witnessing the future World Champion when he lifted the crown later that very same season!