GP Question - Reserves.

[a4poster]

Can you tell me if a reserve is given a ride and is then excluded does the other reserve come in all would it be three riders only?

[Mark]

If a rider went through the tapes in every heat of 20 can each reserve have 10 rides.

If a reserve had 5 rides and won them all would he qualify for the next stage of the GP. 

[Gambo]

44 minutes ago, Mark said:

If a rider went through the tapes in every heat of 20 can each reserve have 10 rides.

If a reserve had 5 rides and won them all would he qualify for the next stage of the GP. 

Q1 = No. 5 rides max.

Q2 = Yes.

[NeilWatson]

12 hours ago, a4poster said:

Can you tell me if a reserve is given a ride and is then excluded does the other reserve come in all would it be three riders only?

The answer would appear to be yes, the FIM rules state: The 2 Track Reserve Riders will replace, in rotation during Heats 1 to 20, any riders disqualified under Art. 8.3, (2 minutes time allowance) or Art. 8.4 (Unsatisfactory start).

There is a brief guide to the GP rules here, the detailed rules can be found here - use the filters 'speedway' & 'codes and regulations'

[f-s-p]

6 hours ago, NeilWatson said:

The answer would appear to be yes, the FIM rules state: The 2 Track Reserve Riders will replace, in rotation during Heats 1 to 20, any riders disqualified under Art. 8.3, (2 minutes time allowance) or Art. 8.4 (Unsatisfactory start).

There is a brief guide to the GP rules here, the detailed rules can be found here - use the filters 'speedway' & 'codes and regulations'

But you also need to read the whole rule, and not stop when you think you have the answer you want.

Later on it clearly states that a reserve cant ride more heats than a scheduled rider. So thats 5 max for a tr.

I was once in a worlds quali where a team manager told his 2nd tr to TT so 1st tr could get more heats as he was having a chance to qualify... That was good team managing!

[NeilWatson]

19 hours ago, a4poster said:

Can you tell me if a reserve is given a ride and is then excluded does the other reserve come in all would it be three riders only?

 

6 hours ago, NeilWatson said:

The answer would appear to be yes, the FIM rules state: The 2 Track Reserve Riders will replace, in rotation during Heats 1 to 20, any riders disqualified under Art. 8.3, (2 minutes time allowance) or Art. 8.4 (Unsatisfactory start).

There is a brief guide to the GP rules here, the detailed rules can be found here - use the filters 'speedway' & 'codes and regulations'

 

39 minutes ago, f-s-p said:

But you also need to read the whole rule, and not stop when you think you have the answer you want.

Later on it clearly states that a reserve cant ride more heats than a scheduled rider. So thats 5 max for a tr.

I was once in a worlds quali where a team manager told his 2nd tr to TT so 1st tr could get more heats as he was having a chance to qualify... That was good team managing!

The original question is quoted above, and asks, in terms, if a reserve can replace the other reserve in a heat. I quoted the section of Rule 3.6 which appears to confirm that they can. That would of course be dependent on the replacing reserve not having already taken 5 rides.

The complete Rule 3.6 reads:

3.6 Track Reserve Riders
In each SGP Meeting, 2 Track Reserve Riders will be nominated by the FMNR to take part. Proposals must be made in writing to the FIM not later than 1 month prior to the meeting.
The SGP Commission will make the final approval and nominations.
After nomination, the official FIM SGP Entry Form for Wild Card & Track Reserve Riders must be duly completed and signed by the Rider and his FMN.
The FMN is responsible for completing and submitting the entry form to the FIM/CCP Administration at least 2 weeks before the meeting for which the Rider has been nominated.
Furthermore, the Rider commits himself by his signature to be fully aware of all the FIM rules; to accept them all and to compete in the FIM SGP Meeting for which he has been nominated.
The 2 Track Reserve Riders will replace, in rotation during Heats 1 to 20, any riders disqualified under Art. 8.3, (2 minutes time allowance) or Art. 8.4 (Unsatisfactory start).
Additionally they shall replace, in rotation, any riders injured after the start of Heat 1 who are unable to take their places in a race. If a rider gets injured before the start of heat 1 then the first Track Reserve Rider will take all of the injured riders programmed rides.
A Track Reserve Rider cannot ride in more heats than a scheduled Rider.
Track Reserve Riders are not permitted to take part in Heats 21, 22 or 23 unless they have qualified to do so according to their total race points scored at the completion of Heat 20.

[Wee Eck]

On 6/11/2020 at 6:32 PM, NeilWatson said:

Track Reserve Riders are not permitted to take part in Heats 21, 22 or 23 unless they have qualified to do so according to their total race points scored at the completion of Heat 20.

That’s an interesting one. The 20 race format is designed to ensure every rider races every other rider once only. Under that rule, a track reserve could complete 5 rides, never racing against the top riders, so inevitably racing more than once against several riders and, if they score enough points to qualify for heats 21 onwards, be allowed to do so

[Mark]

2 hours ago, Wee Eck said:

That’s an interesting one. The 20 race format is designed to ensure every rider races every other rider once only. Under that rule, a track reserve could complete 5 rides, never racing against the top riders, so inevitably racing more than once against several riders and, if they score enough points to qualify for heats 21 onwards, be allowed to do so

Possible but bar a couple they are all top class.  Not many win more than 1 GP per season.

[Wee Eck]

8 hours ago, Mark said:

Possible but bar a couple they are all top class.  Not many win more than 1 GP per season.

But still possible to make the top eight despite not having raced against all the other riders?

[racers and royals]

15 minutes ago, Wee Eck said:

But still possible to make the top eight despite not having raced against all the other riders?

Of course it could happen- but it won`t for one good reason- track reserves are normally young kids - with one of them  sometimes from the staging club.They are not ex world champions.

[Mark]

1 hour ago, Wee Eck said:

But still possible to make the top eight despite not having raced against all the other riders?

Yes I said that

9 hours ago, Mark said:

Possible but bar a couple they are all top class.  Not many win more than 1 GP per season.

 

[Humphrey Appleby]

15 hours ago, Wee Eck said:

But still possible to make the top eight despite not having raced against all the other riders?

The question possibly needs to be framed better.

Yes, a track reserve can make the Semi-Finals with enough points. I believe 5 points is the theoretical minimum needed under normal circumstances to make the top 8 (assuming there aren’t multiple exclusions in some heats), whilst 8 points will guarantee it. 6 or 7 points is probably the realistic minimum required, although it’s possibly conceivable with 4 points on a tiebreak (they would also have had to have won a race in this scenario).
 

A track reserve can obviously only take a maximum of 5 rides, but that could be anywhere in the programme so they could theoretically ride against another rider 5 times, and could certainly ride against one rider more than once. So yes, it’s very unlikely that a track reserve would ever ride against every other rider.

However, this has to be traded against the fact that opportunities for track reserves to ride during a meeting are relatively rare, and they have to alternate rides with the other track reserve (unless that reserve was promoted to a qualified rider pre-meeting). It’s somewhat unlikely, unless there was an early injury that they’d get a full complement of rides, and the law of averages would suggest they’d get a mixture of opposition. 
 

One rule I would add is to make the 9th to 16th placed riders after Heat 20, reserves for the Semi-Finals. And similarly the 3rd and 4th placed riders in the Semi-Finals, the reserves for the Final.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Humphrey Appleby