chunky Posted September 12, 2020 Report Share Posted September 12, 2020 20 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: For the record, does anyone think Mark Loram wasn't a deserving World Champion? I don't think anyone has been an "undeserving" champion. Sure, several riders who weren't actually the "best" rider in the world won, and there have been some who had a large slice of luck, but that doesn't mean they didn't deserve it. In the old days, it was all about getting it right on World Final night, which mean that it was more unpredictable. There are those who claim that Loram didn't deserve it because he didn't win a single GP, but that wasn't the goal. The goal was to score more points over the series than anybody else. He did that, therefore he deserved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinny Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Daniel Smith said: For the record, does anyone think Mark Loram wasn't a deserving World Champion? Of course he deserved it. He was the best rider over the course of the series. And was pretty damn good in the leagues that season as well 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 2 hours ago, chunky said: There are those who claim that Loram didn't deserve it because he didn't win a single GP, but that wasn't the goal. The goal was to score more points over the series than anybody else. He did that, therefore he deserved it. It's a little like debating ancient history to talk about the 2000 title, but Mark had some huge slices of "luck" in 2000. The fact that he didn't win a GP isn't a big issue for me, but the two dodgy exclusions that TRick received in Linkoping and Vojens made a huge difference to the title that year. Having spoken to the ref who was in charge in the Swedish meeting, I know that he regretted the decision he made at the time once he had seen the replays, and it's not hard to see why when you watch it again. The points swing from that decision alone were ultimately the decider of the World title that year, and then you can consider the incident in Denmark...another where Tony seemed hard done by in my view, but that one was maybe more debateable, but also more costly points wise for Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 11 minutes ago, HenryW said: It's a little like debating ancient history to talk about the 2000 title, but Mark had some huge slices of "luck" in 2000. The fact that he didn't win a GP isn't a big issue for me, but the two dodgy exclusions that TRick received in Linkoping and Vojens made a huge difference to the title that year. Having spoken to the ref who was in charge in the Swedish meeting, I know that he regretted the decision he made at the time once he had seen the replays, and it's not hard to see why when you watch it again. I agree 100%, and I was referring specifically to the incident with Loram when I mentioned "luck". It seems that a lot of people have forgotten about it - maybe because it was Mark - but that was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen at that level. It has really stuck with me, probably because of the impact it had on me. People tend to think of the last-minute incidents that can cost titles, but that was every bit as crucial. The other incident that bugs me is when Ermolenko wasn't excluded from the rerun in 1993, as he clearly wasn't under power at the time of the stoppage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 2 hours ago, chunky said: I agree 100%, and I was referring specifically to the incident with Loram when I mentioned "luck". It seems that a lot of people have forgotten about it - maybe because it was Mark - but that was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen at that level. It has really stuck with me, probably because of the impact it had on me. People tend to think of the last-minute incidents that can cost titles, but that was every bit as crucial. The other incident that bugs me is when Ermolenko wasn't excluded from the rerun in 1993, as he clearly wasn't under power at the time of the stoppage. Totally agree. I know that winning often requires some 'luck' or decisions that are maybe badly mis-judged by the official in charge but the Ermolenko incident was very clear and not open to interpretation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 5 hours ago, chunky said: I agree 100%, and I was referring specifically to the incident with Loram when I mentioned "luck". It seems that a lot of people have forgotten about it - maybe because it was Mark - but that was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen at that level. It has really stuck with me, probably because of the impact it had on me. People tend to think of the last-minute incidents that can cost titles, but that was every bit as crucial. The other incident that bugs me is when Ermolenko wasn't excluded from the rerun in 1993, as he clearly wasn't under power at the time of the stoppage. 2 hours ago, steve roberts said: Totally agree. I know that winning often requires some 'luck' or decisions that are maybe badly mis-judged by the official in charge but the Ermolenko incident was very clear and not open to interpretation. You could argue that Ermolenko was "lucky" to win the 93 final with 12 points... he was clearly the best rider in the world that year though imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
customhouseregular Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 Am I alone in thinking the double header format is a good idea?. Assuming we get back to normal next year, how about every gp being a double header?. Gives us 20 gp’s a year that way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcatdiary Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 1 minute ago, customhouseregular said: Am I alone in thinking the double header format is a good idea?. Assuming we get back to normal next year, how about every gp being a double header?. Gives us 20 gp’s a year that way. Not sure we need 20 but Friday and Saturday GP,s have been excellent. Already been a lot of debate on this subject Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screm Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 1 hour ago, customhouseregular said: Am I alone in thinking the double header format is a good idea?. Assuming we get back to normal next year, how about every gp being a double header?. Gives us 20 gp’s a year that way. Under the circumstances it has been a success, whether it would continue next season, when hopefully we are back to normality, I very much doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinny Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 Double headers would be great if you cut out a few of the crap rounds. sadly one of them would be Cardiff - and none of us want that to happen despite the racing being poor at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcatdiary Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 8 hours ago, chunky said: I agree 100%, and I was referring specifically to the incident with Loram when I mentioned "luck". It seems that a lot of people have forgotten about it - maybe because it was Mark - but that was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen at that level. It has really stuck with me, probably because of the impact it had on me. People tend to think of the last-minute incidents that can cost titles, but that was every bit as crucial. The other incident that bugs me is when Ermolenko wasn't excluded from the rerun in 1993, as he clearly wasn't under power at the time of the stoppage. It’s a pity Ermolenko isn’t excluded from commentating, talks utter drivel continuously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 1 hour ago, screm said: Under the circumstances it has been a success, whether it would continue next season, when hopefully we are back to normality, I very much doubt. There is no normality when it comes to speedway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 6 hours ago, steve roberts said: Totally agree. I know that winning often requires some 'luck' or decisions that are maybe badly mis-judged by the official in charge but the Ermolenko incident was very clear and not open to interpretation. I firmly believe that decision by Frank Ebdon was more to do with ensuring Nielsen didn't win the title that year.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 13 hours ago, Daniel Smith said: For the record, does anyone think Mark Loram wasn't a deserving World Champion? No. A rider can only win under the set of rules for that year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 9 minutes ago, Mark said: No. A rider can only win under the set of rules for that year. Some people need to remember that for this year... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, Pinny said: Of course he deserved it. He was the best rider over the course of the series. And was pretty damn good in the leagues that season as well Exactly. Something that annoys me a bit is '2nd is the first of the losers' no it isn't, it means a person did very well and that only one other person was better. Cups & medals are traditionally awarded down to 3rd place, so it could be argued that 4th be considererd the first of the losers; ask the 4th finisher if they'd like to swap with 2nd. In to win it, do your level best sure; someone will be 1st, someone else last & the rest in between somewhere. When finishing 2nd or 3rd enjoy the moment as it means you were not far away from 1st, not everyone can win.... Edited September 13, 2020 by martinmauger added finishing argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Mark said: No. A rider can only win under the set of rules for that year. 57 minutes ago, chunky said: Some people need to remember that for this year... That is exactly my point. The moaning regarding Lindgren is ridiculous. The rider's know the rules & if they're willing to put it all on the line in the qualifying heats & flop under pressure that's not Lindgren's fault. I'd love Woffy to win it again but I can't see it but I wouldn't mind Lindgren doing it. He knows how to be consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 8 hours ago, Dave Jones said: I firmly believe that decision by Frank Ebdon was more to do with ensuring Nielsen didn't win the title that year.. That wouldn't surprise me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted September 13, 2020 Report Share Posted September 13, 2020 2 hours ago, steve roberts said: That wouldn't surprise me! You WOULD say that, wouldn't you? Well, speedway was supposedly "rotten to the core", wasn't it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 Winners & Losers after Round 5: 1 2 3 4 5 Total Pts +/- % Old Rank New Rank Rank Diff Bartosz Zmarzlik 11 14 20 14 17 76 79 3 4% 1 1 0 Freddie Lindgren 10 11 14 17 9 61 78 17 28% 3 2 1 Tai Woffinden 12 15 12 11 12 62 71 9 15% 2 3 -1 Maciej Janowski 17 19 8 9 6 59 62 3 5% 4 4 0 Leon Madsen 13 7 12 15 9 56 59 3 5% 5 5 0 Artem Laguta 20 13 7 3 13 56 55 -1 -2% 5 6 -1 Jason Doyle 5 3 12 16 13 49 53 4 8% 8 7 1 Martin Vaculik 11 4 13 12 13 53 51 -2 -4% 7 8 -1 Emil Sayfutdinov 11 6 6 13 11 47 50 3 6% 9 9 0 Max Fricke 2 8 4 8 8 30 32 2 7% 10 10 0 Matej Zagar 6 4 8 5 4 27 30 3 11% 12 11 1 Niels-Kristian Iversen 3 11 6 3 5 28 28 0 0% 11 12 -1 Mikkel Michelsen 5 7 5 2 7 26 24 -2 -8% 13 13 0 Patryk Dudek 5 7 3 1 7 23 23 0 0% 14 14 0 Gleb Chugunov 6 8 14 16 2 14% 15 15 0 Anders Thomsen 4 6 10 10 0 0% 16 16 0 Antonio Lindback 1 1 2 3 2 9 8 -1 -11% 17 17 0 Vaclav Milik 0 0 1 1 100% 18 18 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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