highest avg rider

[Grachan]

3 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Fair comments and there are many examples of riders who were looked upon as a potential favourite in lifting the crown during a one-off World Final but one bad ride/crash/exclusion/engine failure eluded them...Briggs, Collins, Olsen, Mauger, Michanek, Penhall, Gundersen, Jessup, Carter, Nielsen, Knudsen etc. (off the top of my head!) The two systems require different approaches and personally I find it difficult comparing one with the other. Like any GP system it involves a steady level of performance over a period of time (which occasionally involves highs as well as lows) whereas one-off events require a sudden input which can occasionally catch out the unwary thru' all manner or reasons and requires a strong mental approach which is perhaps why so many good riders failed in becoming World Champion down the years?

Put very simply one's a marathon the other a sprint! There was a very interesting comparison made in an edition of "Backtrack" many years ago now where Tony MacDonald and John Berry shared views...and not always agreeing  with their analysis.

I'm convinced that if the GP's had run during the eighties Nielsen would have won at least six but one-off finals obviously produced a different scenario whereby he had to contend with Gundersen, in particular, requiring him to win at all costs whereas a GP he would have been able to have paced himself better. Just my opinion.

I think that for a while Nielsen knew he was the best in the world and it got to him. He over-rode in a few finals and it cost him. He was even guilty of it when winning his first title and was lucky to get away with it.

I think a GP would have enabled him to settle a but, although Gundersen might have been the master of the GP when they had the KO system instead of regular heats.

It's weird to say it for a 4 time World Champion, but I think he under achieved. I've never seen a rider anywhere near as good a Nielsen. He should have been the undisputed greatest of all time.

[steve roberts]

21 minutes ago, Grachan said:

I think that for a while Nielsen knew he was the best in the world and it got to him. He over-rode in a few finals and it cost him. He was even guilty of it when winning his first title and was lucky to get away with it.

I think a GP would have enabled him to settle a but, although Gundersen might have been the master of the GP when they had the KO system instead of regular heats.

It's weird to say it for a 4 time World Champion, but I think he under achieved. I've never seen a rider anywhere near as good a Nielsen. He should have been the undisputed greatest of all time.

Some fair comments there. Interesting to think that he could so easily have won another four or so titles but it says something of the man that he was at the very top of his game but missed out on occasions which goes back to my earlier observation that one-off finals weren't necessarily easier to win than a GP series....in my opinion! As riders go I list Nielsen as the second best rider of all time (behind Mauger) based on an incredible domestic & international record over twenty years...but I would say that!

Edited May 24, 2020 by steve roberts

[waiheke1]

2 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Nielsen was the best rider in the world from 83-89. I don't think he would have won every year under a gp system, but i reckon maybe 5 of those with Eric winning a couple - maybe 84 & 85. He would have lifted himself for GPs.

Gustix what part of this post has prompted you to "laugh"? Or are you just determined to be a dick on every thread?

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

3 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Gustix what part of this post has prompted you to "laugh"? Or are you just determined to be a dick on every thread?

My money is on B

[waiheke1]

14 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

My money is on B

Sadly, mine too.

There are some posters on here who lose the plot occasionally, and come back after a couple of days to opologise and all is good.  Others who could start an argument in an empty room, and wouldn't stop until the walls had agreed with them. Others who are wind up merchants, who spit the dummy now and then and take off to Rome, or go back to their parent's basement to think about their plastic girlfriend in Leicester who ran off with their best mate. Others who are bigots, plain and simple.  But all of the above add some kind of value to the forum, and contribute to the place of varied viewpoints it is.

Then there is one poster, who could contribute a lot, but instead seems determined to prove that he is not just a cockwomble, but is determined to scale new heights of cockwomblery...

[Sidney the robin]

20 hours ago, Grachan said:

I think that for a while Nielsen knew he was the best in the world and it got to him. He over-rode in a few finals and it cost him. He was even guilty of it when winning his first title and was lucky to get away with it.

I think a GP would have enabled him to settle a but, although Gundersen might have been the master of the GP when they had the KO system instead of regular heats.

It's weird to say it for a 4 time World Champion, but I think he under achieved. I've never seen a rider anywhere near as good a Nielsen. He should have been the undisputed greatest of all time.

Great post Grachan his final efforts in 1980/ 81/ 82  left alot to be desired and my opinion of him then would be that he would always come up short.How wrong was i as usual his move to Oxford did the trick he had a couple of years that he made mistakes in Finals and in 1986 he was lucky in the Knudsen incident but he got there.Hans reminds me of Jason in that respect he hung on in there and once he got his first title ( which is the hardest) he moved on to the second.Cerainly in the top five riders of alltime for hard to know where to place him but the frightening thing was he could of won 7/8 titles great rider also did not always get the backing of Ole along the way.

[steve roberts]

20 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Great post Grachan his final efforts in 1980/ 81/ 82  left alot to be desired and my opinion of him then would be that he would always come up short.How wrong was i as usual his move to Oxford did the trick he had a couple of years that he made mistakes in Finals and in 1986 he was lucky in the Knudsen incident but he got there.Hans reminds me of Jason in that respect he hung on in there and once he got his first title ( which is the hardest) he moved on to the second.Cerainly in the top five riders of alltime for hard to know where to place him but the frightening thing was he could of won 7/8 titles great rider also did not always get the backing of Ole along the way.

...I'm spitting at the mere mention of his name Sid!

[Sidney the robin]

4 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...I'm spitting at the mere mention of his name Sid!

Strange that Steve, he helped Hans alot early on his career then there were problems later on.Olsen is still  one of the greatest riders i have ever  seen but looking back it is amazing the success the Danes had.Mainly because  i don't always think the atmosphere in the camp was always the greatest maybe i am wrong on that score.?

[waiheke1]

3 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Strange that Steve, he helped Hans alot early on his career then there were problems later on.Olsen is still  one of the greatest riders i have ever  seen but looking back it is amazing the success the Danes had.Mainly because  i don't always think the atmosphere in the camp was always the greatest maybe i am wrong on that score.?

you can live with a bad atmosphere when you have clearly the top 2 riders in the world, plus two others in the top ten, in your team ;-)

[Sidney the robin]

1 minute ago, waiheke1 said:

you can live with a bad atmosphere when you have clearly the top 2 riders in the world, plus two others in the top ten, in your team ;-)

Good point but you have to say the Americans had team spirit  in abundance.Just thought the Nielsen/ Gundersen saga was unnecessary and Olsen should of been impartial and he should of helped both.Maybe Hans  showed him that he had his own ideas and mind and said so glad  Hans/Erik get along i think they always did the respect for each other was immense.

[waiheke1]

52 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Good point but you have to say the Americans had team spirit  in abundance.Just thought the Nielsen/ Gundersen saga was unnecessary and Olsen should of been impartial and he should of helped both.Maybe Hans  showed him that he had his own ideas and mind and said so glad  Hans/Erik get along i think they always did the respect for each other was immense.

team spirit helps, but probably secondary to having the best riders. England reportedly had great team spirit in 1980 (when they won), and rubbish in 81 (when they finished runners up). But was that the factor, or was the main difference that they rode in 81 without Lee and Collins, and with Jessup nowhere near the dominant force he was the year before. I'd tend much more towards the latter...

similarly the yanks won in 82, with great team spirit, but doidnt in subsequent years when i'm not sure their team spirit was any worse...they were just missing Penhall (and in subsequent years Siggy as well).

[salty]

I think it was ex Spurs and Scotland striker Steve Archibald who said something along the lines of....team spirit is something you glimpse when you win.

[steve roberts]

5 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

Good point but you have to say the Americans had team spirit  in abundance.Just thought the Nielsen/ Gundersen saga was unnecessary and Olsen should of been impartial and he should of helped both.Maybe Hans  showed him that he had his own ideas and mind and said so glad  Hans/Erik get along i think they always did the respect for each other was immense.

What was particularly galling was the occasion when both Hans and Erik were due to ride as a pair representing Denmark and Olsen had booked Erik into a seperate hotel together with himself. Now if that's not deemed undermining team spirit I don't know what is? When Erik retired he admitted that Olsen's influence was a conflict of interest and caused unease to say the least, not only with Nielsen, but within the Danish contingent. Trouble with Olsen is that he was/is a control freak as often highlighted by various sources.

[steve roberts]

13 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

Great post Grachan his final efforts in 1980/ 81/ 82  left alot to be desired and my opinion of him then would be that he would always come up short.How wrong was i as usual his move to Oxford did the trick he had a couple of years that he made mistakes in Finals and in 1986 he was lucky in the Knudsen incident but he got there.Hans reminds me of Jason in that respect he hung on in there and once he got his first title ( which is the hardest) he moved on to the second.Cerainly in the top five riders of alltime for hard to know where to place him but the frightening thing was he could of won 7/8 titles great rider also did not always get the backing of Ole along the way.

...also, Sid, I guess that we all base greatness on the number of individual world titles won (never mind the number of silver medals) which is understandable but one has to remember the appearances that Hans made for Denmark at Pairs and Team level when he was often the dominating rider plus his other achievements at club level where his influence, on and off the track, brought much success to Oxford. If I recall Hans began to believe in himself after the 1983 World Final when a dropped chain denied him a place on the rostrum and it was from then onwards his standing began to bare results individually although his efforts riding for Denmark prior to that can not be overlooked especially during the 1978 World Team Cup Final whilst still only a teenager.

Also in only his third season in Britain (1979) he averaged over ten points when the league still had the likes of World Class competitors Mauger, Olsen, Collins, Penhall, Lee, Jessup etc in competition so his career really spanned two eras before new antagonists began to emerge during the early middle/eighties and beyond as his own career reached new bounds and achievements.

Edited May 25, 2020 by steve roberts

[steve roberts]

Peter Collins averaged a massive 10-98 (which included 19 maximums) from the more difficult No.3 position (if I recall Soren Sjosten and/or Chris Pusey rode at No.1?). Although probably the most challenging heat leader was those programmed to ride at No.5. I remember reading that Malcolm Simmons envied fellow "Star" Howard Cole riding at No.3 in the same team as he was programmed to ride with a reserve for three of his rides although like the No.5 was programmed to meet the oppostion No.1 twice during the meeting. However it still didn't stop Malcolm heading the team's averages in 1973 with a figure of 10.26.

Edited May 28, 2020 by steve roberts