highest avg rider

[Fromafar]

18 minutes ago, lucifer sam said:

Which is another reason I've always maintained Hans was even more impressive in 1987. He was riding for a struggling team, still recorded a 11.73 BL average, which would have been 11.87 but for a seized engine at Hackney in late October.

PS Two T/S rides for Nielsen for Oxford in the 1986 BL - at Cradley Heath and Reading. Oxford still won the two meetings 45-33 and 43-35.

Few could deny the Hans was probably the best in the World in1987.He did also finish up World Champion that year.

[fatface]

43 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Few could deny the Hans was probably the best in the World in1987.He did also finish up World Champion that year.

Anyone would be hard pressed to find a clearer World no1 in the late 80s as Hans Nielsen. Even though Gundersen pipped him for the World Title in 88 (he was great under pressure), Nielsen was still consistently better than Erik at that time. Gundersen seemed beatable and at times, no matter the track, Nielsen was unbeatable.

That said, in different circumstances, I would have loved to have seen Sigalos, Penhall, Carter, Lee, Sanders in the mix at that time too. The cream was notably thin at the top of world speedway then. Guys like Conny Ivarrson, Olli Tyrvainen, Troy Butler, even John Davis all made world finals, when in truth, they wouldn't have had a sniff 5-10 years prior.

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, falcace said:

Anyone would be hard pressed to find a clearer World no1 in the late 80s as Hans Nielsen. Even though Gundersen pipped him for the World Title in 88 (he was great under pressure), Nielsen was still consistently better than Erik at that time. Gundersen seemed beatable and at times, no matter the track, Nielsen was unbeatable.

That said, in different circumstances, I would have loved to have seen Sigalos, Penhall, Carter, Lee, Sanders in the mix at that time too. The cream was notably thin at the top of world speedway then. Guys like Conny Ivarrson, Olli Tyrvainen, Troy Butler, even John Davis all made world finals, when in truth, they wouldn't have had a sniff 5-10 years prior.

Your last point is totally spot on if those five named were still around that could of changed some part of history but that is how it goes.Going back to Erik one of the things that i admired about him was that he adjusted to the new tapes ruling ( something Lee never did).Erik had a nightmare with that new rule at first but conquered it which took a lot,  great rider Erik great temperment and had a great  personality to.

 

[Tim G]

5 hours ago, falcace said:

Anyone would be hard pressed to find a clearer World no1 in the late 80s as Hans Nielsen. Even though Gundersen pipped him for the World Title in 88 (he was great under pressure), Nielsen was still consistently better than Erik at that time. Gundersen seemed beatable and at times, no matter the track, Nielsen was unbeatable.

That said, in different circumstances, I would have loved to have seen Sigalos, Penhall, Carter, Lee, Sanders in the mix at that time too. The cream was notably thin at the top of world speedway then. Guys like Conny Ivarrson, Olli Tyrvainen, Troy Butler, even John Davis all made world finals, when in truth, they wouldn't have had a sniff 5-10 years prior.

Didn’t John Davis make the world final that Michael Lee won?

[Sidney the robin]

8 minutes ago, Tim G said:

Didn’t John Davis make the world final that Michael Lee won?

Yes Lee beat him from the back in his last race to win the title in 1980.

[fatface]

1 hour ago, Tim G said:

Didn’t John Davis make the world final that Michael Lee won?

Of course and was a deserved finallist then and again in 1988.

My point is that the quality of top level opposition took a serious dip from the mid 80s onwards. John Davis reached the 1980 final in quite a tough era and fair play to him. And for many years after that didn't reach the final, because he just wasn't good enough. So when he got there again in 1988, it wasn't that he had become a better rider, it's because - for different reasons - a lot of world class riders fell by the wayside. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by falcace

[martinmauger]

On 5/18/2020 at 7:37 PM, Grachan said:

That was in KO Cup matches I believe.

It also left him free towards the end of the meeting to be used as a TS if needed.

I went through my proggies and found the following (apologies for weird format, text editor issues):

Ivan Mauger At Hull With Exeter

22 May 1974, No.1, 11-4, 2^nd to Beaton Ht 13, won 2^nd half.

2 July 1975, No.1, 12-4, won 2^nd half.

19 May 1976, No.4, 15-5, won 2^nd half.  Uproar when in ht 13 following very competitive race with Bobby Beaton who fell, Ivan was not excluded, re-run 3 only, fisticuffs between Ian Thomas & Wally Mawdsley.

24 Aug 1977, No.4, postponed.

28 Sept 1977, No.3, 10+1-4, Ht4 3^rd to Mitch Graham & Mike Farrell, won 2^nd half.

So in addition to No.1 Ivan often rode at nos.3 & 4, not no.5 as I thought but he did ok at Hull....

Edited May 22, 2020 by martinmauger
Tidied up slightly, corrected info

[steve roberts]

On 5/21/2020 at 3:02 PM, martinmauger said:

I went through my proggies and found the following (apologies for weird format, text editor issues):

Ivan Mauger At Hull With Exeter

22 May 1974, No.1, 11-4, 2^nd to Beaton Ht 13, won 2^nd half.

2 July 1975, No.1, 12-4, won 2^nd half.

19 May 1976, No.4, 15-5, won 2^nd half.  Uproar when in ht 13 following very competitive race with Bobby Beaton who fell, Ivan was not excluded, re-run 3 only, fisticuffs between Ian Thomas & Wally Mawdsley.

24 Aug 1977, No.4, postponed.

28 Sept 1977, No.3, 10+1-4, Ht4 3^rd to Mitch Graham & Mike Farrell, won 2^nd half.

So in addition to No.1 Ivan often rode at nos.3 & 4, not no.5 as I thought but he did ok at Hull....

Phil Crump recorded a phenomenal 1975 average of 11.17 and 23 maximums despite riding at number five therefore programmed to meet the opposiition number one at least twice during a 13 heat fixture.

Edited May 22, 2020 by steve roberts

[steve roberts]

On 5/13/2020 at 8:31 PM, Baldyman said:

Anders Michanek,,, 11.36 is the highest I've found 

...and was favourite to win the World Championship that season after dominating both the domestic and international scene. However a pointless first ride proved costly but if GPs had been in place during that period he may well have been given a second chance which is why winning a one-off World Final was not as straight forward, or indeed easier, as some would have us believe. However both disciplines require different approaches and therefore very difficult comparing one with the other in my view.

Edited May 23, 2020 by steve roberts

[Sidney the robin]

On 5/21/2020 at 3:02 PM, martinmauger said:

I went through my proggies and found the following (apologies for weird format, text editor issues):

Ivan Mauger At Hull With Exeter

22 May 1974, No.1, 11-4, 2^nd to Beaton Ht 13, won 2^nd half.

2 July 1975, No.1, 12-4, won 2^nd half.

19 May 1976, No.4, 15-5, won 2^nd half.  Uproar when in ht 13 following very competitive race with Bobby Beaton who fell, Ivan was not excluded, re-run 3 only, fisticuffs between Ian Thomas & Wally Mawdsley.

24 Aug 1977, No.4, postponed.

28 Sept 1977, No.3, 10+1-4, Ht4 3^rd to Mitch Graham & Mike Farrell, won 2^nd half.

So in addition to No.1 Ivan often rode at nos.3 & 4, not no.5 as I thought but he did ok at Hull....

Exeter did put Ivan at number two for tactical reasons as well.

[RedOx69]

On 5/19/2020 at 1:36 PM, falcace said:

Anyone would be hard pressed to find a clearer World no1 in the late 80s as Hans Nielsen. Even though Gundersen pipped him for the World Title in 88 (he was great under pressure), Nielsen was still consistently better than Erik at that time. Gundersen seemed beatable and at times, no matter the track, Nielsen was unbeatable.

That said, in different circumstances, I would have loved to have seen Sigalos, Penhall, Carter, Lee, Sanders in the mix at that time too. The cream was notably thin at the top of world speedway then. Guys like Conny Ivarrson, Olli Tyrvainen, Troy Butler, even John Davis all made world finals, when in truth, they wouldn't have had a sniff 5-10 years prior.

In all of those remarkable Nielsen seasons it has to be remembered that he never just chased the win and would team rider whenever he had the opportunity. Not only a the best no.1 in the 80s but also the best team man. He made very average riders look like world beaters.  

[M.D]

On 5/19/2020 at 9:48 AM, Triple.H. said:

Ron Preston was a rider who i thought had a big future in the sport

Ron Preston had it all. He could gate, inside, outside he was a complete rider.

He signed for Eastbourne and I didn't expect too much from him, he had a slow start and went back to America for a knee brace.

After that he was virtually unbeatable for Eastbourne, pushing both Gordon Kennett and Kelly Moran for the number one spot.

I remember going up to Reading, we never did well there, Ron dominated the meeting getting 14 for an unexpected away win.

He never rode in Europe after the season he had with Eastbourne, I think he was a world champion in waiting, that knee injury stopped it.

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, RedOx69 said:

In all of those remarkable Nielsen seasons it has to be remembered that he never just chased the win and would team rider whenever he had the opportunity. Not only a the best no.1 in the 80s but also the best team man. He made very average riders look like world beaters.  

Agree 100%.

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, M.D said:

Ron Preston had it all. He could gate, inside, outside he was a complete rider.

He signed for Eastbourne and I didn't expect too much from him, he had a slow start and went back to America for a knee brace.

After that he was virtually unbeatable for Eastbourne, pushing both Gordon Kennett and Kelly Moran for the number one spot.

I remember going up to Reading, we never did well there, Ron dominated the meeting getting 14 for an unexpected away win.

He never rode in Europe after the season he had with Eastbourne, I think he was a world champion in waiting, that knee injury stopped it.

A crying shame that Eastbourne didn't achieve any success with such an outstanding heat leader trio. Paul Woods gave good support but beyond that a very weak tail. Of course by the following season all three had left Arlington!

[waiheke1]

12 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...and was favourite to win the World Championship that season after dominating both the domestic and international scene. However a pointless first ride proved costly but if GPs had been in place during that period he may well have been given a second chance which is why winning a one-off World Final was not as straight forward, or indeed easier, as some would have us believe. However both disciplines require different approaches and therefore very difficult comparing one with the other in my view.

I think the GP series is EASIER to win if you are the best rider in the world (maybe even top 2) because it reduces elements of luck, or the impact of one bad ride.

For anyone else, the one off world final was easier to win, as it required doing just enough to get through qualifying rounds, then 5 good rides on the big night.

 

[June01]

On 5/14/2020 at 11:42 AM, mikebv said:

Can't remember the stat, but didnt he only lose something like three races all season at Hyde Rd?

1969..Belle Vue..37..158..456..5..11.67..22F..3P

[waiheke1]

1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

A crying shame that Eastbourne didn't achieve any success with such an outstanding heat leader trio. Paul Woods gave good support but beyond that a very weak tail. Of course by the following season all three had left Arlington!

Thing is, it wasn't even the best trio in the league. The strongest heat leader trio (Penhall, Gundersen, Grahame) backed up by a genuine fourth heat leader and quality second string (Collins and King). Their reserves were as rubbish as Eastbornes.  Belle Vue were more classically built, with the 2nd strongest trio in the league (Morton, Ross,Collins) and then two solid second strings and arguably the best reserves in the league.

You also had Ipswich and Coventry with similarly strong heat leaders, but much stronger support.

Of course the following season Eastborne had an equally weak tail, just without the heat leader trio! Only Woods (along with Courtney the most improved rider in 83?) and to a lesser extent  Eskildsten returning scores of any quality. 

[steve roberts]

7 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Thing is, it wasn't even the best trio in the league. The strongest heat leader trio (Penhall, Gundersen, Grahame) backed up by a genuine fourth heat leader and quality second string (Collins and King). Their reserves were as rubbish as Eastbornes.  Belle Vue were more classically built, with the 2nd strongest trio in the league (Morton, Ross,Collins) and then two solid second strings and arguably the best reserves in the league.

You also had Ipswich and Coventry with similarly strong heat leaders, but much stronger support.

Of course the following season Eastborne had an equally weak tail, just without the heat leader trio! Only Woods (along with Courtney the most improved rider in 83?) and to a lesser extent  Eskildsten returning scores of any quality. 

Yes Cradley had by far the strongest heat leader trio based on averages but only Eastbourne challenged them with three heat leaders averaging nine plus. Belle Vue had Collins as a third heat leader on a strong eight plus average whereas both Ipswich and Coventry had third heat leaders on seven plus. But all these sides had better back up as you say  whereas Eastbourne carried a very long tail with three riders averaging three plus hence "The Eagles" final disappointing league position. As I said a missed opportunity in gaining some sort of success that year. When Ron Preston was interviewed in later years he stated how Eastbourne should have gained more that season.

[steve roberts]

10 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

I think the GP series is EASIER to win if you are the best rider in the world (maybe even top 2) because it reduces elements of luck, or the impact of one bad ride.

For anyone else, the one off world final was easier to win, as it required doing just enough to get through qualifying rounds, then 5 good rides on the big night.

 

Fair comments and there are many examples of riders who were looked upon as a potential favourite in lifting the crown during a one-off World Final but one bad ride/crash/exclusion/engine failure eluded them...Briggs, Collins, Olsen, Mauger, Michanek, Penhall, Gundersen, Jessup, Carter, Nielsen, Knudsen etc. (off the top of my head!) The two systems require different approaches and personally I find it difficult comparing one with the other. Like any GP system it involves a steady level of performance over a period of time (which occasionally involves highs as well as lows) whereas one-off events require a sudden input which can occasionally catch out the unwary thru' all manner or reasons and requires a strong mental approach which is perhaps why so many good riders failed in becoming World Champion down the years?

Put very simply one's a marathon the other a sprint! There was a very interesting comparison made in an edition of "Backtrack" many years ago now where Tony MacDonald and John Berry shared views...and not always agreeing  with their analysis.

I'm convinced that if the GP's had run during the eighties Nielsen would have won at least six but one-off finals obviously produced a different scenario whereby he had to contend with Gundersen, in particular, requiring him to win at all costs whereas a GP he would have been able to have paced himself better. Just my opinion.

Edited May 24, 2020 by steve roberts

[waiheke1]

Nielsen was the best rider in the world from 83-89. I don't think he would have won every year under a gp system, but i reckon maybe 5 of those with Eric winning a couple - maybe 84 & 85. He would have lifted himself for GPs.