Five riders that you felt were underrated.

[steve roberts]

24 minutes ago, chunky said:

Was JD another Mauger, Collins, or Olsen? Of course not, but between 1977 and 1981 (leaving out a "poor" year in 1978), I would think that the following averages would class someone as more than a "backup"...

1977 - 9.80

1979 - 10.32

1980 - 9.59

1981 - 9.67

I just think you guys are being a little harsh...

What I meant by back up was that he was often a supporting player (albeit a good one) to a team's number one although he did top the averages once at Reading and a couple of times at Poole. Personally I never rated him but his longevity is beyond question.

Interesting when John joined Wimbledon in 1984 Malcolm Simmons mentored him and attempted to eliminate his habit of looking over his shoulder when in front which often left him vulnerable to the likes of Gordon Kennett especially!

Edited May 2, 2020 by steve roberts

[tigerowl]

Eric Boocock

Richard Knight

Andy Smith

Larry Ross

Jerzy Szczakiel

[chunky]

40 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Personally I never rated him but his longevity is beyond question.

That is my point! I am not talking about longevity, but you say you never rated him, and sidney doesn't class him as an "overwhelming" number one. You don't have to physically top the averages to be a "number one", and being top of a team's averages doesn't necessarily make you a number one.

Those averages I posted SHOULD be enough to prove that JD was a real "number one". For some reason, he is never classed alongside the other top riders of the day, but he was certainly good enough to be.

[Sidney the robin]

12 hours ago, chunky said:

That is my point! I am not talking about longevity, but you say you never rated him, and sidney doesn't class him as an "overwhelming" number one. You don't have to physically top the averages to be a "number one", and being top of a team's averages doesn't necessarily make you a number one.

Those averages I posted SHOULD be enough to prove that JD was a real "number one". For some reason, he is never classed alongside the other top riders of the day, but he was certainly good enough to be.

I must say Chunky i did see Davis win 

a  manpower meeting at Reading and he was the bollocks he was on fire that night.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Sidney the robin

[Pinny]

11 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

How about that guy Henricksson at Newport Pinny?? what was he like remember him also can remember a young charging Puk.

Anders was class but did mainly rely on his gating and home form although in his last season at Newport he was superb home and away. A super fan favourite and a class act but felt if he committed himself fully throughout his whole career , Smart could of gone onto bigger things. 
 

some called him dirty, I preferred to think of him as just a madman

[steve roberts]

11 hours ago, chunky said:

That is my point! I am not talking about longevity, but you say you never rated him, and sidney doesn't class him as an "overwhelming" number one. You don't have to physically top the averages to be a "number one", and being top of a team's averages doesn't necessarily make you a number one.

Those averages I posted SHOULD be enough to prove that JD was a real "number one". For some reason, he is never classed alongside the other top riders of the day, but he was certainly good enough to be.

Interestingly (averages aside) when John was interviewed some years ago he candidly admitted that "I didn't really get my whole act together until the last eight or ten years of my career, from 1984 onwards, when I became a better all round rider...British speedway never saw the best of me  - I always went better on the big, fast continental tracks where the promoters and the people made me feel more appreciated."  He felt that he probably "under-achieved as an individual in England but definately not abroad". In fact the whole interview showed John as a very articulate and thought provoking person.

John Berry also went on record to suggest that "John was never going to be in the very top bracket, but he would always be there or therabouts and on his day was capable of surprising anyone".

To re-iterate I saw John ride during his formative years at Cowley. First in the second halves progressing to full team opportunties during 1973 (as a replacement for Eddie Reeves) and moving up full time in 1974. It was clear that his biggest attribute was his gating and he surprised a few well known names during those times but he was inconsistant. It wasn't until he moved to Reading when his gating prowess became more reliable and his average took a steep learning curve to demonstrate that fact however his ability to pass was always questionable and something that he never really conquered which is why I never really rated him...but then there were/are many riders who suffer with the same attribute.

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by steve roberts

[chunky]

5 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

I must say Chunky i did see Davis win 

a  manpower meeting at Reading and he was. the bollocks he,was on fire that night.

He was the same at Wimbledon. Can't remember what individual meeting it was, but he won it after a run-off with Penhall (Bruce fell). When he was on form, he could make anyone look second-rate.

[steve roberts]

12 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

I must say Chunky i did see Davis win 

a  manpower meeting at Reading and he was. the bollocks he,was on fire that night.

I often saw him at Smallmead in 1975 during a transitional season after his complicated move from Oxford and he was certainly "on fire" at the season's end "Geoff Curtis Memorial Meeting" when together with Dag Lovaas and Tommy Jansson ended up with 14 points and he won a three man run-off against the odds.

Edited May 3, 2020 by steve roberts

[Sidney the robin]

My main memory of John Davis was that he had terrific aquipment ( wealthy dad).I see alot of him at Reading and for me was not really a team rider usually gate and go he also seemed to struggle to hold the line often after gating he would leave a hole and get passed.But Chunkies figures don't lie he was a class rider for a long period longevity wise very impressive.

[HGould]

Mavis Davis for me would be in the "vastly over-rated category" out and out gater, backed by very wealthy family and often picked by National Team over far better riders like Betts / Wyer / Kennett (in earlier career) L Collins / Phil Collins / Grahame's later on. 

He was a good rider no doubt, a gater who could beat anyone on a slick track, but nowhere near the greats.

[Sidney the robin]

5 minutes ago, HGould said:

Mavis Davis for me would be in the "vastly over-rated category" out and out gater, backed by very wealthy family and often picked by National Team over far better riders like Betts / Wyer / Kennett (in earlier career) L Collins / Phil Collins / Grahame's later on. 

He was a good rider no doubt, a gater who could beat anyone on a slick track, but nowhere near the greats.

Davis was a two time world finalist won a world team cup medal in 1977, he also qualified for 15 British Finals 1976-91 ( missed out only in 1990). Not a rider i liked but i certainly respected him, over the period i saw him ride at Reading often as a TEAM they underachieved.Andersson, Hunt, Davis all of them were never really team riders remember Andersson usually getting the best gates.He did teamride well with Jonsson though so could do it.Remember one year Peter Glanz getting really frustrated with Davis he said riding with him was like riding against another visiting rider.

[HGould]

4 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Davis was a two time world finalist won a world team cup medal in 1977, he also qualified for 15 British Finals 1976-91 ( missed out only in 1990). Not a rider i liked but i certainly respected him, over the period i saw him ride at Reading often as a TEAM they underachieved.Andersson, Hunt, Davis all of them were never really team riders remember Andersson usually getting the best gates.He did teamride well with Jonsson though so could do it.Remember one year Peter Glanz getting really frustrated with Davis he said riding with him was like riding against another visiting rider.

It's all about opinions isn't it Sidney; and Davis was always a bit of a "marmite" character as I remember having long arguments (friendly banter) about Mavis back in those days. We all have our favourites and those we just can't understand what the hype is about. That's speedway and it's an interesting thread for that reason. 

[iris123]

Opinions of course. But the thing I don’t get with the under- rated term is they are all riders that weren’t great riders, so aren’t rated as highly. That doesn’t make them under rated, just rated where they belong, imo

[Sidney the robin]

1 minute ago, HGould said:

It's all about opinions isn't it Sidney; and Davis was always a bit of a "marmite" character as I remember having long arguments (friendly banter) about Mavis back in those days. We all have our favourites and those we just can't understand what the hype is about. That's speedway and it's an interesting thread for that reason. 

Totally right H Gould remember Simmo commenting once about him saying he had great aquipment like Ivan but was not half the rider.Yet he sold himself very well and always had good sponsorship over the years.Remember Simmo saying that all the number 1 riders got together and told each other what they were being paid Davis always earned well.

[nw42]

Davis was never very popular up north, certainly not at Hyde Rd anyway, southern softy was how my dad referred to him.  Someone mentioned he was good on big fast tracks abroad but I can't remember him ever doing anything at the Zoo.

[steve roberts]

Interesting analysis by John Berry in his "More Confessions" book where he had broken down a riders assessment on "equipment", "mental strength" and "ability" marking out of ten. For John Davis he wrote

"You would have thought nobody could ever fault John's equipment. Certainly it was immaculate and was never short-changed. I just wonder, though, if a bit too much effort was spent on the bike looking the part rather than being the best performer. Still, eight and a half for that part of the formula. Strong mind? John could certainly talk a good race and did his homework and preparation well. He was also not worried about mixing it with anyone, although I am not sure he was quite up with the 'best' in the ruthless stakes. Eight points for that. Where John slips up in the ratings is in ability. To get as far as he did on such limited talent was incredible. For riding ability, I have to dip as low as five points I am afraid".

Fair assessment I thought.

Edited May 3, 2020 by steve roberts

[iris123]

So John Berry thinks he was over rated rather than. under rated ? And I think he was rated where he belonged. Opinions eh

[Terry]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

Remember Simmo saying that all the number 1 riders got together and told each other what they were being paid Davis always earned well.

..And poor old Martin Ashby discovering that he was on a few grand less than the others!

[Sidney the robin]

57 minutes ago, nw42 said:

Davis was never very popular up north, certainly not at Hyde Rd anyway, southern softy was how my dad referred to him.  Someone mentioned he was good on big fast tracks abroad but I can't remember him ever doing anything at the Zoo.

Such an interesting point NW,i  felt as examples Jessup, Kennett, Davis were never  really great at Hyde Rd even Hans in his early days was vulnerable at Hyde Rd.Hans later disproved that he ended up being awesome there  have to say Carter, Gundersen are probably the best riders  i have ever seen there just behind a PEAK Collins funny how the northern fans viewed some of the Southern softees.

[Sidney the robin]

11 minutes ago, iris123 said:

So John Berry thinks he was over rated rather than. under rated ? And I think he was rated where he belonged. Opinions eh

His opinion holds up very well for me Iris a man who i had great respect for Berry or Chapman ??? no comparison eh!!! John was a legend in my eyes a chance was lost when we didn't let him revamp speedway in the uk and nothing has really changed since.