British Speedway to be reborn?

[FAST GATER]

7 minutes ago, Vince said:

I think some sort of engine cost reduction is desirable but not uprights or two valves really because of the need for everybodys engines to become obsolete overnight. The cost reduction of having 2 valves v 4 is minimal in my opinion and changing to uprights would achieve nothing more than making the rest of the bike obsolete as well. As I've said before just the rev limiter set at a low level would make most of the expensive parts unnecessary on it's own. It has to be remembered that unlike just about every other motorsport having a less powerful engine will often make it more difficult to ride and in many ways harder to set up. I like the idea of a minimum stroke as well but not sure if you can get that with short stroke cases, however it seems that over time less revs would mean riders going back to longer stroke engines anyway.

Sticking to laydown chassis also means that if engine rules are different for divisions or leagues you could quickly fit a different engine into your existing equipment or possibly even just different rev limiters.

As for the standard of racing being the most important thing it seems entirely logical but what just about every promoter will tell you is that home wins produce the best crowds.

I agree with much of what you say my idea of baseline  test was to show that a significant amount   of changes to engines over the last 20 odd years  has increased cost and little else ,if that was proved we maybe able to address the costs to riders  .

[*JJ]

15 hours ago, phillwhitewasmad said:

Keep reading threads and a big point keeps coming up about standard engines. Think the biggest mistake was they didn’t make the gerhard engine compulsory for the national league within two years of the time the got involved with them. 

But who was going to pay for that? They cost £5000 each: which meant that practically every rider in the country would be ten grand at least out of pocket! As for upright engines: they are exactly the same as laydowns, except for the oil breather. I sold one to a rider (who posts on this forum), and he fitted it to an upright frame and won amateur races with it.

[phillwhitewasmad]

1 minute ago, *JJ said:

But who was going to pay for that? They cost £5000 each: which meant that practically every rider in the country would be ten grand at least out of pocket  As for upright engines: they are exactly the same as laydowns, except for the oil breather. I sold one to a rider (who posts on this forum he fitted it to an upright frame and won amateur races with it.

I don’t disagree with the costs but if the engine was what they said it was you would only need one. They could of done a HP type deal on them and with service intervals being less surely costs would of been eventually evened up. I get this wouldn’t of been ideal but there has to be a commitment from both sides. Currently we have riders wanting more money because costs are high, we have promotions wanting to cut costs because out goings are to high yet neither side has the will to come together for the good of the sport .

just my opinion really 

[MattK]

26 minutes ago, FAST GATER said:

I agree with much of what you say my idea of baseline  test was to show that a significant amount   of changes to engines over the last 20 odd years  has increased cost and little else ,if that was proved we maybe able to address the costs to riders  .

It may address the cost to riders, but how does that help clubs?

Let me give you an example, say I earn £50k and drive a 6.3 litre V8 costing me £100 a week. I trade it in for a more economical 1.6 litre diesel. Do I tell my employer that they can reduce my wages? Of course not, I pocket the difference.

Why would that be any different if the costs incurred by speedway riders were reduced?

[DC2]

10 minutes ago, MattK said:

It may address the cost to riders, but how does that help clubs?

Let me give you an example, say I earn £50k and drive a 6.3 litre V8 costing me £100 a week. I trade it in for a more economical 1.6 litre diesel. Do I tell my employer that they can reduce my wages? Of course not, I pocket the difference.

Why would that be any different if the costs incurred by speedway riders were reduced?

 

Well, it would if you’re looking to reduce their wages.

Isn’t that the whole point of the discussion?  Getting costs down so we can lower the entrance fee or spend more money on improving the stadium or track?

[MattK]

24 minutes ago, DC2 said:

 

Well, it would if you’re looking to reduce their wages.

Isn’t that the whole point of the discussion?  Getting costs down so we can lower the entrance fee or spend more money on improving the stadium or track?

Are riders wages linked to their costs or are they linked to supply and demand of riders?

For example does Jason Doyle have double the costs of Anders Rowe - because I'd bet he is on at least double the points money?

[DC2]

1 minute ago, MattK said:

Are riders wages linked to their costs or are they linked to supply and demand of riders?

For example does Jason Doyle have double the costs of Anders Rowe - because I'd bet he is on at least double the points money?

 

Almost certainly.

[FAST GATER]

59 minutes ago, MattK said:

Are riders wages linked to their costs or are they linked to supply and demand of riders?

For example does Jason Doyle have double the costs of Anders Rowe - because I'd bet he is on at least double the points money?

Lets be honest here JD is head and shoulders above anyone in the PL (making hay while the sun shines) but IMO most riders would have less leverage on pay with lower racing costs .What you have to take in account that if you had a standard engine not requiring an ace tuner the riders would be able to take a pay cut   and still make a living be it as a semi pro.

[Vince]

The other thing that really surprised me when my lad started riding Speedway was that hardly anybody did their own servicing any more, not even the most basic stuff.

In the NL at least most riders could easily buy a standard engine and maintain it for the season themselves with perhaps one full rebuild by a good specialist between seasons after all engines don't get much more simple. The problem only comes because the odd lad in the league has money to throw at the sport and turns up with better equipment than most PL riders, then the others have to try and compete with that. How much difference it actually makes to points scored is debatable but if somebody has better bikes than you then you'll always be convinced that's why he beat you!

Jason Doyle and Anders Rowe per meeting costs will be very similar for sure.

Semi- pro racing is so much more difficult in this 24/7 era than it was for previous generations, at least for those who aren't self employed.

[MattK]

1 hour ago, FAST GATER said:

Lets be honest here JD is head and shoulders above anyone in the PL (making hay while the sun shines) but IMO most riders would have less leverage on pay with lower racing costs .What you have to take in account that if you had a standard engine not requiring an ace tuner the riders would be able to take a pay cut   and still make a living be it as a semi pro.

Why would riders accept a pay cut if they were able to reduce their overheads, any more than I'd request a pay cut because I bought a more economical car?

[Spl77]

Now different tracks same competition 13 years apart look at the difference in the crowd levels. That's why something needs doing to save the sport and that poor crowd was 18 years ago god knows what it would be these days

[steve roberts]

21 minutes ago, Spl77 said:

Now different tracks same competition 13 years apart look at the difference in the crowd levels. That's why something needs doing to save the sport and that poor crowd was 18 years ago god knows what it would be these days

Kelvin Tatum on his old track - How the mighty had fallen!

[DC2]

1 hour ago, MattK said:

Why would riders accept a pay cut if they were able to reduce their overheads, any more than I'd request a pay cut because I bought a more economical car?

 

Now that your news is out, Matt, my guess is that your salary is down to 80%.  

 

[Big Al]

I recall David Howe, soon after he'd finished riding, airing his views on this forum and although not remembering the detail, they seem to be similar to much that has been put onto this thread. And that was long before the havoc being caused by a global pandemic. Much of his rational thinking was focused on costs and equipment, and about the UK scene needing to prioritise its own survival by establishing and operating at a realistic level.

He also talked about how he did not rely on speedway and other motorcycling to provide him with a living, with HGV driving work as his other income. It's long been something which intrigues me - how do speedway riders get other income, or do they have other sources at all? 

People like David Howe should be involved in planning and decision-making in the current crisis. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Big Al
thought of more

[greyhoundp]

44 minutes ago, Big Al said:

I recall David Howe, soon after he'd finished riding, airing his views on this forum and although not remembering the detail, they seem to be similar to much that has been put onto this thread. And that was long before the havoc being caused by a global pandemic. Much of his rational thinking was focused on costs and equipment, and about the UK scene needing to prioritise its own survival by establishing and operating at a realistic level.

He also talked about how he did not rely on speedway and other motorcycling to provide him with a living, with HGV driving work as his other income. It's long been something which intrigues me - how do speedway riders get other income, or do they have other sources at all? 

People like David Howe should be involved in planning and decision-making in the current crisis. 

I would have thought delivery driving would be one of the main opportunities for those that dont have a so called Trade, or money behind them, LGV/HGV driving is what i would classify as a Trade, and something most reasonable drivers can progress to, I should know b,cuz even i qualified as an LGV2 driver . I know Neil Evitts has his own Transport company now so thats something most riders could combine their racing with or the more technically gifted could do as Richard Andrews does as i believe he is a qualified mechanic, Window cleaning is another option its possible to earn £100+ per day at that, all that needs is to get some leaflets printed, canvass your local area, knock up a website, and build the window cleaning round up, Iv also done that in my time.. Jeff astle the former Baggies and England centre forward did window cleaning when he retired, Ron Flowers Wolves and England ran his own Sports shop, where their is a will their is a way if someone wants it badly enough..

Even Barry Bishop is a part time promoter, as he combines Promoting with his day job, and he makes a pretty decent fist of things down on the Island..

Edited April 26, 2020 by greyhoundp

[steve roberts]

35 minutes ago, Big Al said:

I recall David Howe, soon after he'd finished riding, airing his views on this forum and although not remembering the detail, they seem to be similar to much that has been put onto this thread. And that was long before the havoc being caused by a global pandemic. Much of his rational thinking was focused on costs and equipment, and about the UK scene needing to prioritise its own survival by establishing and operating at a realistic level.

He also talked about how he did not rely on speedway and other motorcycling to provide him with a living, with HGV driving work as his other income. It's long been something which intrigues me - how do speedway riders get other income, or do they have other sources at all? 

People like David Howe should be involved in planning and decision-making in the current crisis. 

George Hunter used to be an HGV driver and when living in the midlands it was reported that he would drive to Immingham Docks on the Humber then drive back home to pick up his bike and then drive up to Edinburgh to ride that same evening.

[NeilWatson]

3 hours ago, Spl77 said:

Now different tracks same competition 13 years apart look at the difference in the crowd levels. That's why something needs doing to save the sport and that poor crowd was 18 years ago god knows what it would be these days

That’s hardly a like-for-like comparison, one photo is of the main home-straight stand at Peterborough, the other of the third bend at Brandon.

Edited April 26, 2020 by NeilWatson

[wealdstone]

All these plans seem to me to to have an even worse effect on getting this country back at the forefront of international Speedway

[pvm]

34 minutes ago, NeilWatson said:

That’s hardly a like-for-like comparison, one photo is of the main home-straight stand at Peterborough, the other of the third bend at Brandon.

I think you'll find they are Video clips, it you play each one, the crowd difference becomes apparent. 

[NeilWatson]

2 minutes ago, pvm said:

I think you'll find they are Video clips, it you play each one, the crowd difference becomes apparent. 

Fair enough, thanks for pointing that out.