British Speedway to be reborn?

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Just now, DC2 said:

 

What do you mean?  You’re beginning to slip from debate to abuse.

I said “Polish type team” and I’ve used Lesznos as an example.

Both things you mention are the exact evidence of "what I mean" none of which is even remotely close to "abuse" 

I fail to see where this notion of a £50 sport with teams built like those in the Polish league have come from, this seems to be your own thought process which you have imposed. 

[Grachan]

Just now, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

Score yes, scoreboard - it is totally moot re retention of fans. 

 

It is about giving the sport more of a team sport atmosphere. It enhances the product.

Not everyone wants to fill in a programme or have to listen intently to announcements. I actually think it might give a casual attendee more of an impression that he has been to see a match between two teams rather than just people on bikes, making them more likely to get into what they are watching. The old "The

Why do you think they have the score displayed on screen on BT and Sky? It's so people know what is going on.

For me, a having a scoreboard in a sport with such complicated scoring is just common sense.

[DC2]

Just now, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

Both things you mention are the exact evidence of "what I mean" none of which is even remotely close to "abuse" 

I fail to see where this notion of a £50 sport with teams built like those in the Polish league have come from, this seems to be your own thought process which you have imposed. 

 

Not at all. It was a guess on my part.

If you think that team would be supported by a £30 admission fee say so and give an idea of how many fans would pay that and what the overheads would be.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Just now, Grachan said:

Not everyone wants to fill in a programme or have to listen intently to announcements.

Just as not everyone cares about a scoreboard.... it is a minority attraction. 

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Just now, DC2 said:

 

Not at all. It was a guess on my part.

If you think that team would be supported by a £30 admission fee say so and give an idea of how many fans would pay that and what the overheads would be.

 

I don't know what you are talking about anymore sorry. 

[Grachan]

Just now, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

Just as not everyone cares about a scoreboard.... it is a minority attraction. 

I don't want to bang on about the scoreboard thing, as I'll just be repeating myself, but I'll just say that, as you say, the scoreboard itself is not the attraction, it's the match score that is the attraction.

Speedway is not just about people riding motorbikes. Numbers and statistics are a big part of the appeal in many cases and, for me, they should do all they can to exploit this.

Too many people think it's just about blokes on bikes without brakes, but, to some, it is about more than that.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Just now, Grachan said:

I don't want to bang on about the scoreboard thing, as I'll just be repeating myself, but I'll just say that, as you say, the scoreboard itself is not the attraction, it's the match score that is the attraction.

Speedway is not just about people riding motorbikes. Numbers and statistics are a big part of the appeal in many cases and, for me, they should do all they can to exploit this.

Too many people think it's just about blokes on bikes without brakes, but, to some, it is about more than that.

 

Grand....

[DC2]

Just now, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

 

I don't know what you are talking about anymore sorry. 

 

Didn’t you say we need to see the best riders?

Well, to pay for them you have to charge more or hope attendances treble or better.

So can you afford them on 800 crowds paying £50 each or on 2,000 crowds paying £30?

You definitely can’t afford them on 1500 crowds paying £17.

So I’m asking you where the balance lies between quality of rider and affordability?

[Grachan]

Just now, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

 

I don't know what you are talking about anymore sorry. 

 

Just now, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

 

Grand....

Looks like that's the end of that discussion then.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Just now, Grachan said:

 

Looks like that's the end of that discussion then.

Well yeah, that's why I replied with a one word answer, pretty self explanatory... 

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

1 minute ago, DC2 said:

 

Didn’t you say we need to see the best riders?

Well, to pay for them you have to charge more or hope attendances treble or better.

So can you afford them on 800 crowds paying £50 each or on 2,000 crowds paying £30?

You definitely can’t afford them on 1500 crowds paying £17.

So I’m asking you where the balance lies between quality of rider and affordability?

 

I could just make up random figures, but really what is the point in that as it is just an imaginary conversation. 

[DC2]

3 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:

I could just make up random figures, but really what is the point in that as it is just an imaginary conversation. 

 

Fair point.

But I assume you take my point that you can’t have the best riders if they can’t be paid for by people through the turnstile.

 

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

1 minute ago, DC2 said:

 

Fair point.

But I assume you take my point that you can’t have the best riders if they can’t be paid for by people through the turnstile.

 

 

I thought my original point had made that pretty clear to be honest. 

"The USP IS the sport, when people wish to attend they want to see fast racing and the best riders - this has shown over the years when the sport had better riders - more people were attending.... it now doesn't have the best riders, less people are attending"

I had assumed that had covered my thoughts re where attendances would be with better riders

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, DC2 said:

 

But there’s no evidence that the first caused the second.

Spot on..

In the past 30 years attendances have steadily declined overall and for much of that continual decline we had the 'world's best' riding, which, to keep them, meant regular inflation busting admission increases year on year, which in no small part, resulted in less followers..

The Premiership clubs get the best attendances because there is a 'natural' selection based on the history of each club, not because of 'who is there'..

If the Aces dropped down for example, and rode on Friday or Saturdays, there certainly wouldn't be any less there than currently, and quite possibly many more given how many attended 'weekend Speedway' the first year in the NSS. Therefore the Aces have enough followers to be 'top division'..

Glasgow I would suggest now get close to, if not better than, some Premiership clubs' attendances with 'lesser' riders (although many are the same!), so they are becoming a bigger name in the sport after historically being one of the 'lower league clubs'. After a few years of this they too may become 'naturally' a top division team if the crowds keep at those levels..

Leicester dropped a division, lost the World Champ, changed nights and improved crowds. Meaning their 'natural level' to be successful as a business is, I would suggest, the second tier..

And Cradley in the NL had better crowds than Wolves and if they had a track to race on would immediately be top division I would say given that's their 'natural' level given their crowd numbers... 

Some clubs in the second division could have Nikki P and Jason Crump riding for them next year and after a month I can virtually guarantee crowds would be pretty much as normal, because that is their 'natural level of crowd', hence they stay where they are.. 

Bringing 'big names' back wont bring 'big crowds' back.

Because when they were all there, big crowds became smaller crowds..

[W9 Lion]

7 minutes ago, mikebv said:

Spot on..

In the past 30 years attendances have steadily declined overall and for much of that continual decline we had the 'world's best' riding, which, to keep them, meant regular inflation busting admission increases year on year, which in no small part, resulted in less followers..

The Premiership clubs get the best attendances because there is a 'natural' selection based on the history of each club, not because of 'who is there'..

If the Aces dropped down for example, and rode on Friday or Saturdays, there certainly wouldn't be any less there than currently, and quite possibly many more given how many attended 'weekend Speedway' the first year in the NSS. Therefore the Aces have enough followers to be 'top division'..

Glasgow I would suggest now get close to, if not better than, some Premiership clubs' attendances with 'lesser' riders (although many are the same!), so they are becoming a bigger name in the sport after historically being one of the 'lower league clubs'. After a few years of this they too may become 'naturally' a top division team if the crowds keep at those levels..

Leicester dropped a division, lost the World Champ, changed nights and improved crowds. Meaning their 'natural level' to be successful as a business is, I would suggest, the second tier..

And Cradley in the NL had better crowds than Wolves and if they had a track to race on would immediately be top division I would say given that's their 'natural' level given their crowd numbers... 

Some clubs in the second division could have Nikki P and Jason Crump riding for them next year and after a month I can virtually guarantee crowds would be pretty much as normal, because that is their 'natural level of crowd', hence they stay where they are.. 

Bringing 'big names' back wont bring 'big crowds' back.

Because when they were all there, big crowds became smaller crowds..

Doyle was not World Champion at Leicester.  I think you only have to look at two factors as to why the crowds increased at Leicester last year.; 1. The change back to Saturday nights, 2. A winning team for the first time since the club returned in 2011.

For Leicester to continue to grow their crowds they need to keep on winning & remain "a Saturday nght club" then hopefully we can get back to the level of support we received in the first three seasons, or even higher.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

If only Speedway tracks had crowds as small as they were 6 or 7 years ago. Yes,  it will never be what is was in the 80s again, but at the minute it is barely even attended as it was in 2010, when crowds were bigger and hadn't shrunk as much as they have now. 

The sport has hemorrhaged people in a pretty short space of time, all of which does just happen to coincide with the departure of better riders, but I mean clearly that doesn't suggest it's the reason, it just HAS to be something other than that (it's not) 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan

[Sidney the robin]

2 hours ago, Crabba59 said:

Not sure who posted on here about top riders coming back over here,  it was said that woffinden would put 600 plus fans on the gate just look when he  ride for wolves half way through the season he did NOT put that figure on top of the normal attendance.  If people think that way are living on a different planet . In the 90s yes but not now.

 

Totally right  how could any club afford Tai now?? maybe if the sky money was still there you might entertain the idea.For me every club should live within its means try to put together a decent side within a budget and try to deliver a good night's racing.This idea about the better riders paying for  themselves bringing in more spectators is wishful thinking.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Just now, Sidney the robin said:

Totally right  how could any club afford Tai now?? maybe if the sky money was still there you might entertain the idea.For me every club should live within its means try to put together a decent side within a budget and try to deliver a good night's racing.This idea about the better riders paying for  themselves bringing in more spectators is wishful thinking.

About as wishful as people sticking with the sport to see "a good nights racing" , crowds don't lie. 

[mikebv]

45 minutes ago, W9 Lion said:

Doyle was not World Champion at Leicester.  I think you only have to look at two factors as to why the crowds increased at Leicester last year.; 1. The change back to Saturday nights, 2. A winning team for the first time since the club returned in 2011.

For Leicester to continue to grow their crowds they need to keep on winning & remain "a Saturday nght club" then hopefully we can get back to the level of support we received in the first three seasons, or even higher.

Which to get back to their initial success levels means second tier racing for me..

Too much of a risk to go top tier again given the way attendances dropped off..

For me, there should be a 'natural selection' used..

Over 1000 fans on average over a season each meeting and you should be top division

600 to 1000 and you run 2nd Divison..

Less than 600 should be NL..

Organic growth then dictates levels. If you start to get more fans then go up a level, if you get less, then drop..

Natural selection..

And race on whatever night you want to..

Whichever night brings the most punters in..

Not on ones that you are made to because your 'employees' tell you that's the only days they can make it.. (That's madness).

Edited April 22, 2020 by mikebv

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

1 hour ago, mikebv said:

If the Aces dropped down for example, and rode on Friday or Saturdays, there certainly wouldn't be any less there than currently, and quite possibly many more given how many attended 'weekend Speedway' the first year in the NSS. Therefore the Aces have enough followers to be 'top division'..

This video suggests you are talking absolute bollocks - date, a Friday night - there is next to no one thereto simply go out and see the Aces race no matter the rider in the jacket. 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Hacksaw Jim Duggan