Your best speedway year

[norbold]

23 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Do you ever learn?? Woffinden i quite like he is not an as..h...   but Craven, Collins/ Lee there records are pretty good too.Lee made mega mistakes that cost him  his career  but he still achieved quite alot. Collins could of won three titles if had had luck on his side Craven died aged 29 when approaching his peak nothing against Tai give the riders i have named credit.

There are lots of riders who could have won more world titles if luck had been on their side, but that's part of the game old chap. You can't just decide someone really won three world titles because they might have been a bit unlucky twice. I also cannot agree that Craven was approaching his peak when he died. He had been at his peak for a while. Yes, he may have won more titles, but there is no real reason to assume he would have. Fundin, Briggs and Knutson were also at their peak and then along came Mauger. My personal opinion is that PC the first wouldn't have won any more titles.

[Sidney the robin]

1 minute ago, chunky said:

When have I EVER not given those riders credit? I just prefer to judge individuals on what actually happened, and not what MIGHT have happened.

I was a big fan of Collins, and he COULD have have had FOUR world titles in a row. Due to a series of unfortunate events, he didn't.

I wasn't a fan of Lee, due to his dubious record. Again, he was perhaps the most talented rider of all time. However, due to his mental frailties, he never got close to fulfilling his potential. So, it doesn't matter what he COULD have achieved, he DIDN'T.

Craven, I never saw, so it is difficult for me to say. He was clearly a brilliant rider, but tragedy prevented him from adding more world titles. Had he continued, he may well have won more, but we just don't know.

Woffinden? Maybe not as naturally talented as Lee, and not as unfortunate as the two PC's, but through hard work and determination, and not a little skill, he has gone on to produce far and away the best World Championship record of ANY British rider. It is that record that makes him - in my view - the best British rider of all time. And he is not finished yet.

In view of my comments above - and what I have posted previously - I fail to see how you can keep accusing me of not giving credit to other riders.

Maybe i was wrong and you have over the years given the riders named credit. But???!!!! Tai never ever won a one  off final over  one given day  has he ? was Peter or Michael  ever given that chance to ride in a series.Dress it up as much as you like but the series now is a closed shop needs reinventing becoming boring.

[BWitcher]

2 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Maybe i was wrong and you have over the years given the riders named credit. But???!!!! Tai never ever won a one  off final over  one given day  has he ? was Peter or Michael  ever given that chance to ride in a series.Dress it up as much as you like but the series now is a closed shop needs reinventing becoming boring.

Dress it up all you want, the series now has close to the best riders in the world.. No World Final ever had that.

As for harder to win, it's a totally different thing, but easier to win on one night than over a series.

 

[Sidney the robin]

5 minutes ago, norbold said:

There are lots of riders who could have won more world titles if luck had been on their side, but that's part of the game old chap. You can't just decide someone really won three world titles because they might have been a bit unlucky twice. I also cannot agree that Craven was approaching his peak when he died. He had been at his peak for a while. Yes, he may have won more titles, but there is no real reason to assume he would have. Fundin, Briggs and Knutson were also at their peak and then along came Mauger. My personal opinion is that PC the first wouldn't have won any more titles.

But Norbold with him out of the way aged 29  and he was approaching his peak it was was a whole lot easier.Plus  Moore had his six year exile as well in which has to be considered.

[Sidney the robin]

3 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Dress it up all you want, the series now has close to the best riders in the world.. No World Final ever had that.

As for harder to win, it's a totally different thing, but easier to win on one night than over a series.

 

A closed shop  no Drabik yet, no Smektala, Lambert will get there hopefully with luck.!!!'any fresh blood anytime soon Witcher.!!!!

Winning  a one off final is harder  than just  aiming for the semi / Final scenario over a ten round period.

[BWitcher]

1 minute ago, Sidney the robin said:

A closed shop  no Drabik yet, no Smektala, Lambert will get there hopefully with luck.!!!'any fresh blood anytime soon Witcher.!!!!

Winning  a one off final is harder  than just  aiming for the semi / Final scenario over a ten round period.

There are qualifying rounds every year, if they're good enough, they'll qualify.

Would Egon Muller have won a GP series? Or Jerzy Szakiel (excuse spelling!)? 

[Sidney the robin]

27 minutes ago, chunky said:

Stop f*cking accusing me!  I have NEVER intimated that you can't say anything against Tai! There are things he has said and done of which I'm not a fan, but I can say the same about most riders. Peter Collins included.

However, going by his on-track feats, it is impossible to look past his superb record.

If you think it is easier for Tai to win a GP series, you may be right. However, it is easier for EVERYONE! In the old days, everybody rode in different numbers of meetings to be World Champion. At least what we have now, everybody has exactly the same chance...

Don't get stressy cant be good for you take a deep breath.!!!

[Sidney the robin]

14 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

There are qualifying rounds every year, if they're good enough, they'll qualify.

Would Egon Muller have won a GP series? Or Jerzy Szakiel (excuse spelling!)? 

It is stale and boring and when most of  the older riders exile it will move on again.And Muller as much I disliked him winning in 83 he was to good on  that given  day  you  need a SKILL to be able to do that.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Sidney the robin

[chunky]

14 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Don't get stressy cant be good for you take a deep breath.!!!

Then please stop accusing me of things!

[chunky]

6 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

It is stale and boring and when most of  the older riders exile it will move on again.And Muller as much I disliked him winning in 83 he was to good on  that given  day  you  need a SKILL to be able to do that.

You need SKILL to become a speedway world champion WHATEVER format is used.

You also needed a lot more LUCK with the old system. That's why Collins wasn't a four-time World Champion. That's why Szczakiel was a World Champ. That's why a lot of the top riders missed out on World Finals on occasion.

[BWitcher]

10 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

It is stale and boring and when most of  the older riders exile it will move on again.And Muller as much I disliked him winning in 83 he was to good on  that given  day  you  need a SKILL to be able to do that.

Was he the best rider in the world that year? 

[Sidney the robin]

Just now, chunky said:

Then please stop accusing me of things!

I am not , but you getting irate and annoyed cannot be good for you.Chunky every point you have made tonight i RESPECT ( Believe it or not).

[Sidney the robin]

1 minute ago, chunky said:

You need SKILL to become a speedway world champion WHATEVER format is used.

You also needed a lot more LUCK with the old system. That's why Collins wasn't a four-time World Champion. That's why Szczakiel was a World Champ. That's why a lot of the top riders missed out on World Finals on occasion.

You summed it up nicely you needed alot more luck to win in the old format.

[Sidney the robin]

3 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Was he the best rider in the world that year? 

He was on the day i went , Nielsen, Lee, Carter,Sigalos , Gundersen, Sanders all failed to beat him on that given day.

[BWitcher]

4 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

He was on the day i went , Nielsen, Lee, Carter,Sigalos , Gundersen, Sanders all failed to beat him on that given day.

That wasn't the question.

[rjsj9803]

26 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

He was on the day i went , Nielsen, Lee, Carter,Sigalos , Gundersen, Sanders all failed to beat him on that given day.

He wouldn't have caught Hans though but for engine failure when half a straight ahead.

That bike of Mullers was a rocket ship that day but totally fluffed the start in his last race.

[chunky]

3 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

Good old Chunky FACT really dream on in your your own mind it might.  Av a rethink Chunky on this post the arrogance of yourself is embarrassing .

You have accused me of several things tonight. Firstly, when I agreed with FACTS that falcace had posted, you immediately countered with the claim that they were NOT facts. Then you claim that my arrogance is embarrassing because I am standing by those facts.

2 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

give the riders i have named credit.

Then, there is the above statement which clearly indicates that you don't think I am giving them any credit at all, which is a total lie. You have done that several times before, most notably by screaming at me when you claimed that I said Billy Sanders was an "also-ran", which I didn't.

2 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

BUT you love Tai Chunky  can't say anything against him.

Another totally false claim, as all I have ever done is stated that Woffinden's on-track achievements clearly put him above Collins and Lee.

[steve roberts]

Getting back on topic 1977 was another memorable year for me. White City winning the Championship and so many memorable meetings/moments at Wood Lane. It was my last year at school and therefore starting work and my weekly trips to London were my highlights as well as occasional trips elsewhere around the country supporting "The Rebels". Watching Gordon Kennett develop into a top class rider was a highlight but the whole "Rebels" team were a joy to watch. Cieslak, Weatherley, Geer, Niemi, Gachet, Sampson and Dave Kennett.

Edited April 18, 2020 by steve roberts

[Sidney the robin]

5 hours ago, chunky said:

You have accused me of several things tonight. Firstly, when I agreed with FACTS that falcace had posted, you immediately countered with the claim that they were NOT facts. Then you claim that my arrogance is embarrassing because I am standing by those facts.

Then, there is the above statement which clearly indicates that you don't think I am giving them any credit at all, which is a total lie. You have done that several times before, most notably by screaming at me when you claimed that I said Billy Sanders was an "also-ran", which I didn't.

Another totally false claim, as all I have ever done is stated that Woffinden's on-track achievements clearly put him above Collins and Lee.

I think not a different era a different challenge believe it or not we are all entitled to maybe have a different opinion.? 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Sidney the robin

[norbold]

7 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

But Norbold with him out of the way aged 29  and he was approaching his peak it was was a whole lot easier.Plus  Moore had his six year exile as well in which has to be considered.

Why do you think he was "approaching his peak"? What evidence is there for that? Remember he first won the World title in 1955. He was roughly the same age as Fundin and Briggs; Knutson was younger. I would say that all of them, Craven included, were AT their peak in the early-mid 60s.

In addition, I know it's not a fact and just my opinion, but as someone who was around at the time, I would say Craven was fourth best of those four. A view supported by the Speedway Star, who placed him 4th behind Fundin, Knutson, Briggs (in that order) in their 1963 end of year rankings list. Personally, as I said, my view is that he would not have won another World title. Of course, we will never know and who knows what part luck might have played in subsequent finals?