Your best speedway year

[Chadster]

1 hour ago, BWitcher said:

Mauger's averages were all from 18-19 team leagues I believe... same with Briggs?

Fundin however clocked up an 11.60 in a 10 team league in 1958.

The BL was 18 teams in 1965 and 19 thereafter. Another think to consider would be the move to fixed gate positions. I can't remember when that was introduced, certainly when Nielsen was around.

[norbold]

22 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

I think taking those stats only, you'd have to say Hans was the greatest. His average in 89 is equivalent to a high 11+ in other year's when you take into account the nominated rider's heat introduced that year.

There was also a nominated riders' heat for some of Ove's time.

[steve roberts]

55 minutes ago, Chadster said:

The BL was 18 teams in 1965 and 19 thereafter. Another think to consider would be the move to fixed gate positions. I can't remember when that was introduced, certainly when Nielsen was around.

I'm guessing that it was 1988?

[Sidney the robin]

7 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

From late 82 to early 86 the sport prematurely lost Penhall, Sigalos, Sanders, Carter and effectively Lee. 

I  can never understand why people never mention Jansson ( only 24) he would of been at his peak at that time against those guys you mentioned.

[iris123]

26 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I'm guessing that it was 1988?

No doubt you are right, but I thought it was much later. But just a bad hunch

[chunky]

12 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I  can never understand why people never mention Jansson ( only 24) he would of been at his peak at that time against those guys you mentioned.

Because, at the time of his tragic death, he still hadn't shown anything like true class at the very top level. Yes, he may well have done, and I think he probably WOULD have done, but as of May 1976, he was not one of the very top echelon (alongside Collins, Olsen, Mauger etc).

And that is coming from a lifelong Dons fan, and a huge Tommy fan.

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I  can never understand why people never mention Jansson ( only 24) he would of been at his peak at that time against those guys you mentioned.

The late great Wimbledon star Sweden's Tommy Jansson.

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Guest

[Sidney the robin]

51 minutes ago, chunky said:

Because, at the time of his tragic death, he still hadn't shown anything like true class at the very top level. Yes, he may well have done, and I think he probably WOULD have done, but as of May 1976, he was not one of the very top echelon (alongside Collins, Olsen, Mauger etc).

And that is coming from a lifelong Dons fan, and a huge Tommy fan.

Really Chunky are you for real !!!! he punched well above his weight at the top level  up until 75/76.You would have to be a complete muppet to not consider that World Pairs!!!! he also won two nice individuals events in 75/ 76..Also my point was i was talking about when he died in 76 he was beginning to really get there.If he had not died he would of been approaching his prime with the riders that was mentioned. (I.e.) Penhall, Sigalos, Lee, Olsen, Nielsen, Gundersen.Chunky you need to think about what you are saying before trying to score points over certain people.Engage your brain are you saying up until  when he died May 1976 Tommy had not shown anything at the very top level???? 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Sidney the robin

[iris123]

I am in between you guys. I am not sure if chunky saw Tommy much in 75/76 ? I thought it was Tommy's death that got him back into the sport. Not of course that you have to see a rider to make a judgement. But I do think he came back from Australia a much better rider, much improved. He seemed to have a confidence in him. But of course you look at Hans and even though he had the same confidence in the league or look at Leigh Adams as another example, it doesn't always mean they are going to be a world beater. It took Hans quite a few years until he eventually had the luck or mental strength to win a title. I have no doubt Tommy would have made it into the elite for a good period. I couldn't say he would definitely have won a title

[Sidney the robin]

12 minutes ago, iris123 said:

I am in between you guys. I am not sure if chunky saw Tommy much in 75/76 ? I thought it was Tommy's death that got him back into the sport. Not of course that you have to see a rider to make a judgement. But I do think he came back from Australia a much better rider, much improved. He seemed to have a confidence in him. But of course you look at Hans and even though he had the same confidence in the league or look at Leigh Adams as another example, it doesn't always mean they are going to be a world beater. It took Hans quite a few years until he eventually had the luck or mental strength to win a title. I have no doubt Tommy would have made it into the elite for a good period. I couldn't say he would definitely have won a title

Well your post is spot on and yes nobody is certain but i am certain from about  76/84 he would of been a force.What  Chunky says is complete nonsense by 1976 he was world class also remember from 1970/76 all of those years were not complete years either( swedes ban, National service) 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Sidney the robin

[Sidney the robin]

20 minutes ago, iris123 said:

I am in between you guys. I am not sure if chunky saw Tommy much in 75/76 ? I thought it was Tommy's death that got him back into the sport. Not of course that you have to see a rider to make a judgement. But I do think he came back from Australia a much better rider, much improved. He seemed to have a confidence in him. But of course you look at Hans and even though he had the same confidence in the league or look at Leigh Adams as another example, it doesn't always mean they are going to be a world beater. It took Hans quite a few years until he eventually had the luck or mental strength to win a title. I have no doubt Tommy would have made it into the elite for a good period. I couldn't say he would definitely have won a title

Iris for Chunky to make those comments he could not of seen Tommy ride that much in 75/76 .

[chunky]

13 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Really Chunky are you for real !!!! he punched well above his weight at the top level  up until 75/76.You would have to be a complete muppet to not consider that World Pairs!!!! he also won two nice individuals events in 75/ 76..Also my point was i was talking about when he died in 76 he was beginning to really get there.If he had not died he would of been approaching his prime with the riders that was mentioned. (I.e.) Penhall, Sigalos, Lee, Olsen, Nielsen, Gundersen.Chunky you need to think about what you are saying before trying to score points over certain people.Engage your brain are you saying up until 1976 Tommy had not shown anything at the very top level???? 

Firstly, let's forget the insults...

Secondly, what happened to you claiming that, "everybody is entitled to an opinion"? Apparently you don't think I am!

Unlike you - and I have stated this repeatedly - I use facts and figures to substantiate my opinion, rather than simple emotion and bias.

Tommy was already established as a top BL rider, but that doesn't translate directly when compared to top level international events.  Although he had appeared in several World Finals, he was never more than a contender for a mid-table finish.

Yes, he did have two gold medals from the World Pairs, but let's look at the actual statistics.

In 1973, he scored 9 points from six rides. Here's the complete list of riders he beat: Reidar Eide & Dag Lovaas, Ivan Mauger & Graeme Stapleton, Jiri Stancl & Petr Ondrasik, Zbigniew Marcinkowski, and Kurt Bogh. He also lost to (and scored fewer than) Vladimir Gordeev and Anatoli Kuzmin.

In 1975, he scored 7 points from six rides. Here;s the complete list of riders he beat: Jan Henningsen (E/F), Adi Funk & Herbert Szerecs, Christoph Betzl and Fritz Baur, Piotr Bruzda, and John Boulger.

It was an achievement to beat Ivan, although it wasn't his finest day. Eide, Lovaas, and Boulger were all decent riders, but none were world-beaters. The rest? Well...

I had seen Tommy a few times in 1975, and yes he was very good; the last time I saw him was when he won The Laurels with a 15 point max. I hadn't been at all in 1976, but it was Tommy's death that brought me back the following week. I get the point that Doug is making, and I agree that he was much improved in 1976, and as I said, I think he WOULD have got there - quite possibly that same year - but it was too early in 1976 to actually say that he had reached the elite few. It was a terrible tragedy, and we will never know.

[Sidney the robin]

Not convinced by you Chunky at all ,  by 1982  Mauger,Olsen, Michanek, Collins  there best days had gone.They would of been replaced and at that time Jansson ( if given the chance) would of been in a group of riders in the mix.To say his Pairs wins meant nothing is madness i will ask you one more time up until his untimely death are you telling me he was not WORLD CLASS and had not shown that class.??

Edited May 7, 2020 by Sidney the robin

[chunky]

3 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Not convinced by you Chunky at all ,  by 1982  Mauger,Olsen, Michanek, Collins  there best days had gone.They would of been replaced and at that time Jansson would of been in a group of riders in the mix.To say his Pairs wins meant nothing is madness i will ask you one more time up until his untimely death are you telling me he was not WORLD CLASS and had not shown that class.??

Please try reading and understanding what I said, rather than just repeating your views.

1982 means NOTHING. Tommy never reached that time, so we will NEVER know. Again, I believe he WOULD have got to that level - but he DIDN'T.

I NEVER said he wasn't world class, but he hadn't reached that elite level of the top five or six riders in the world. And NO, the fact that he beat Piotr Bruzda, Herbert Szerecs, Graeme Stapleton, Zbigniew Marcinkowski, and Fritz Bauer DOESN'T mean anything. Sorry...

The fact is that being a top rider in the BL - even back then - doesn't make you a God; to be one of the elite, you have to prove yourself against the elite, in elite events. And consistently. I had the greatest respect for Martin Ashby, Terry Betts, and Eric Boocock, and NONE of them were ever close to reaching the elite, despite breathtaking domestic form.

[waiheke1]

1 hour ago, iris123 said:

No doubt you are right, but I thought it was much later. But just a bad hunch

I think it was 89, same time as nominated riders heat. Possibly Steve is right with 88, definitely in place by 90

[MassMarauder]

As a sidetrack to the enjoyable banter - I started watching in 1973 - my fave years between 1978-84 when I had cash and left home and could go as often as I wanted. I enjoyed the 84 season the most I reckon 'cos I spent the summer jumping on trains catching mtgs all over the place, with camera in hand.  I got to know a number of riders pretty well and spannered for Keith Bloxsome a couple of times when the Stars were in London.

Comparing the riders from the one off era to the GP series - I remember being a fan of  the Daily Mirror/Volkswagen Grand Prix Series from 76 to 1980.  One year Mike Lee won 3 rounds and still finished outside the top 3 in the Grand Final.  Was very happy to see him win it finally at Wimbledon in 1980.

Edited May 7, 2020 by MassMarauder

[Sidney the robin]

1 minute ago, chunky said:

Please try reading and understanding what I said, rather than just repeating your views.

1982 means NOTHING. Tommy never reached that time, so we will NEVER know. Again, I believe he WOULD have got to that level - but he DIDN'T.

I NEVER said he wasn't world class, but he hadn't reached that elite level of the top five or six riders in the world. And NO, the fact that he beat Piotr Bruzda, Herbert Szerecs, Graeme Stapleton, Zbigniew Marcinkowski, and Fritz Bauer DOESN'T mean anything. Sorry...

The fact is that being a top rider in the BL - even back then - doesn't make you a God; to be one of the elite, you have to prove yourself against the elite, in elite events. And consistently. I had the greatest respect for Martin Ashby, Terry Betts, and Eric Boocock, and NONE of them were ever close to reaching the elite, despite breathtaking domestic form.

The POINT you misunderstood  and  never quite grasped was from 1976 until 82 he would of matured as a rider.He was only 24 and in 1976  he had really gone up a level or to he was a top 16 rider in the world already.Ask Briggs,Michanek, Mauger, Collins,Knutsson,Olsen they all said he would of been at the top for along time.

[Sidney the robin]

20 minutes ago, chunky said:

Please try reading and understanding what I said, rather than just repeating your views.

1982 means NOTHING. Tommy never reached that time, so we will NEVER know. Again, I believe he WOULD have got to that level - but he DIDN'T.

I NEVER said he wasn't world class, but he hadn't reached that elite level of the top five or six riders in the world. And NO, the fact that he beat Piotr Bruzda, Herbert Szerecs, Graeme Stapleton, Zbigniew Marcinkowski, and Fritz Bauer DOESN'T mean anything. Sorry...

The fact is that being a top rider in the BL - even back then - doesn't make you a God; to be one of the elite, you have to prove yourself against the elite, in elite events. And consistently. I had the greatest respect for Martin Ashby, Terry Betts, and Eric Boocock, and NONE of them were ever close to reaching the elite, despite breathtaking domestic form.

You need to read the posts properly  first Chunky don't twist thing's around .My point was that he was 24 years old already World class and approaching his best and peak years. IF he had lived until 1982/84 he would of been a major force is that easy anough for you to grasp.!!!!!!

Edited May 7, 2020 by Sidney the robin

[MassMarauder]

I think Bruce Penhall would have been boss in a GP series - I see him as an early version of Greg Hancock.  Focused, great equipment, great back up team.

[chunky]

1 minute ago, Sidney the robin said:

The POINT you misunderstood  and  never quite grasped was from 1976 until 82 he would of matured as a rider.He was only 24 and in 1976  he had really gone up a level or to he was a top 16 rider in the world already.Ask Briggs,Michanek, Mauger, Collins,Knutsson,Olsen they all said he would of been at the top for along time.

I didn't misunderstand anything. For the umpteenth time, I BELIEVE HE WOULD HAVE MATURED, AND REACHED THAT LEVEL!

Sadly, he was robbed of the opportunity, he never did reach that level, and we will never know if he would have done. It is pure conjecture. Had he not lost his life when and where he did, something else may have happened at another place and time.

Two months later, we rode against Ipswich in the first leg of the Gold Cup final. Tommy couldn't have tangled with Billy Sanders, and broken a leg. He may have decided to retire. He might have been like Jack Millen, and got killed in a road accident. We can believe all we want, but we just don't know.

We can only base our views on what actually happened, not what MIGHT have happened.

I will give you another example. I hadn't said anything on here, but a few weeks ago, my wife wasn't feeling well. I decided to take the day off work and stay with her. I went out to get some milk, and when I got home, she was unconscious in a heap on the bedroom floor. She was in a coma for three days. Now, had I gone to work that day, she would PROBABLY have been dead when I got home. I didn't go to work, and she didn't die. Of course, I have been thinking about that, but it didn't happen, and it's no good trying to predict what WOULD have happened. Hell, I could have gone to work that day and got killed in a crash, but I didn't, and we will never know...