England's best what order.??

[norbold]

This is what I said about Nigel Boocock in my article for Classic Speedway and why I placed him at no. 1:

"1. Nigel Boocock. Top place in my best of the 1960s goes to Nigel Boocock. Noted for his blue leathers, there is no doubt he always gave 100% to any race he was involved in, whether it was a second half scratch race or the World Championship final. Throughout the 1960s he was a loyal servant to Coventry. A top rider in the old National League, starting the decade in 1960 with a 9 point average, he really came into his own with the formation of the British League in 1965, knocking up five successive years of 10 plus averages, including an incredible 11.08 in 1965. He qualified for the World Final every year from 1963 except one with 4^th place in 1969 proving his best. He appeared for England/Great Britain over 30 times as well as taking part in five World Team Cup finals. He also won many other prestigious individual trophies including the Internationale and Brandonapolis against riders of the calibre of Barry Briggs and Ove Fundin."

[25yearfan]

9 hours ago, chunky said:

I don't think that this was meant to be "all-inclusive"; just sorting out a rating of these particular riders.  Of course,riders like Craven and Collins would be mentioned in a full list.

Firstly, as has been discussed here before, World Team Cups aren't really an indication of "individual ability".  A specific example is PC's three World Team Cup Final maximums.  Yes, it was an achievement, but the ONLY true world-class rider he faced in those was Michanek.

Again, while World Pairs wins are a more accurate representation, riders like Nigel Boocock shouldn't  be penalised for not having pairs wins when his best years were in an era when the event didn't exist!

I admit that Eric Boocock didn't achieve much on the international stage, but his BL record and consistency should count for something, and year in, year out, produced figures better than several others mentioned here.

The title of the thread indicates exactly what you are saying it isn't! - "England's best" - The very reason why I never mentioned double World Champion Welshman Freddie Williams!

 

Get what you are saying about World team cups and the Pairs wasn't about for most of Nigel Boococks prime in the 60's when he almost certainly would of seen service for an English pairing. Whilst high scoring heatleader form in the British League is a major indicator of a riders top level ability, all 7 riders in this list were out and out number 1's who had regular top average returns for many years so its hard to separate them there. That's why I have used World title successes as my measuring stick hence why Simmo is top of my list!

 

For the record I think Scott Nicholls is up with the best English riders but theirs no way he would have won as many British titles if he'd of ridden in the 1965 - 1992 era when there was a lot more higher level English (and Brits for that matter) riding and at least 10 riders in a British final had a genuine chance of winning!  +

 

Its a hard call to make either way for sure but ones things for certain all 7 riders were top level riders during a golden age of speedway that doesn't look like being repeated.

Edited April 13, 2020 by 25yearfan

[steve roberts]

50 minutes ago, 25yearfan said:

The title of the thread indicates exactly what you are saying it isn't! - "England's best" - The very reason why I never mentioned double World Champion Welshman Freddie Williams!

 

Get what you are saying about World team cups and the Pairs wasn't about for most of Nigel Boococks prime in the 60's when he almost certainly would of seen service for an English pairing. Whilst high scoring heatleader form in the British League is a major indicator of a riders top level ability, all 7 riders in this list were out and out number 1's who had regular top average returns for many years so its hard to separate them there. That's why I have used World title successes as my measuring stick hence why Simmo is top of my list!

 

For the record I think Scott Nicholls is up with the best English riders but theirs no way he would won as many British titles if he'd of ridden in the 1965 - 1992 era when there was a lot more higher level English (and Brits for that matter) riding and at least 10 riders in a British final had a genuine chance of winning!  +

 

Its a hard call to make either way for sure but ones things for certain all 7 riders were top level riders during a golden age of speedway that doesn't look like being repeated.

Agree entirely.

[chunky]

4 hours ago, 25yearfan said:

The title of the thread indicates exactly what you are saying it isn't! - "England's best" - The very reason why I never mentioned double World Champion Welshman Freddie Williams!

I know what the title says, but I also know Sidney! I can assure that Craven, Collins, and Lee would be in his top seven English riders. This was a debate about seven OF England's finest from a particular era, not THE best seven.

4 hours ago, 25yearfan said:

That's why I have used World title successes as my measuring stick hence why Simmo is top of my list!

To be fair, I'm not sure that that a couple of World Final appearances and a British Final win would put him above Boocock. The ironic thing is that in a previous thread, I had actually placed Simmo above Chris Morton. Several other members then pointed out that Mort's record in the World Championship and major meetings, and a very impressive league record, would put HIM above Simmo also!

[Sidney the robin]

5 hours ago, 25yearfan said:

The title of the thread indicates exactly what you are saying it isn't! - "England's best" - The very reason why I never mentioned double World Champion Welshman Freddie Williams!

 

Get what you are saying about World team cups and the Pairs wasn't about for most of Nigel Boococks prime in the 60's when he almost certainly would of seen service for an English pairing. Whilst high scoring heatleader form in the British League is a major indicator of a riders top level ability, all 7 riders in this list were out and out number 1's who had regular top average returns for many years so its hard to separate them there. That's why I have used World title successes as my measuring stick hence why Simmo is top of my list!

 

For the record I think Scott Nicholls is up with the best English riders but theirs no way he would have won as many British titles if he'd of ridden in the 1965 - 1992 era when there was a lot more higher level English (and Brits for that matter) riding and at least 10 riders in a British final had a genuine chance of winning!  +

 

Its a hard call to make either way for sure but ones things for certain all 7 riders were top level riders during a golden age of speedway that doesn't look like being repeated.

I never considered including PC x 2, Michael,Tai, Freddie, Mark,Gary, Tommy , in this thread because that would be another debate for another year.I just picked the seven mainly because they were fine riders in there own right and it just highlighted how strong the era was.Also Chunky and others have mentioned other names, ( i.e.) Morton, Hunter, and if we wanted we could of mentioned Carter,Wigg, Tatum,Louis ( jnr)Going back to the seven riders mentioned Nigel was  nearly a decade ahead of the other six so his case to be top dog is a very strong one.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Sidney the robin

[norbold]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

Going back to the seven riders mentioned Nigel was  nearly a decade ahead of the other six so his case to be top dog is a very strong one.

Yes, I think this is a bit of a problem with the seven you named as Nigel Boocock is not really the same era as the others. He is mainly a 60s man whereas the others are 70s. Of course they all overlapped to some extent, but it is difficult to know how to order them because of that.

[steve roberts]

15 minutes ago, norbold said:

Yes, I think this is a bit of a problem with the seven you named as Nigel Boocock is not really the same era as the others. He is mainly a 60s man whereas the others are 70s. Of course they all overlapped to some extent, but it is difficult to know how to order them because of that.

Which is why I placed Nigel further down my particular list (although acknowledging his endeavours) he was on the decline when I started attending speedway.

[Sidney the robin]

21 minutes ago, norbold said:

Yes, I think this is a bit of a problem with the seven you named as Nigel Boocock is not really the same era as the others. He is mainly a 60s man whereas the others are 70s. Of course they all overlapped to some extent, but it is difficult to know how to order them because of that.

Yes Norbold  you are totally right overlapped is the  word,  funny thing is growing up i never really thought of Nigel being that much older than the others.The DVD where Eric brilliantly talks about both of there careers,  i didn't realise that Eric travelled that much with Nigel to meeting's before he got seriously got involved with his own career. 

[chunky]

2 hours ago, norbold said:

Yes, I think this is a bit of a problem with the seven you named as Nigel Boocock is not really the same era as the others. He is mainly a 60s man whereas the others are 70s. Of course they all overlapped to some extent, but it is difficult to know how to order them because of that.

On the other hand, John Louis stands out for being a later era than the others.

Take 1969. Five of the seven were close to their peak, and the top two Englishmen in the averages were the Boococks. They were closely followed by Wilson, and Ashby and Betts were both pushing a 10-point average. Simmo still had a few years before reaching his peak, but was already a force to be reckoned with. Louis hadn't sat on a speedway bike yet...

Edited April 13, 2020 by chunky

[BL65]

Looking at the league averages achieved in the top division as a measure of consistency shows the following:

The peak years of the seven riders measured by the consecutive seasons in which they attained a 9.00+ average
Terry Betts 1966-1977 (12 seasons)
Nigel Boocock 1963-1972 (10)
Eric Boocock 1965-1974 (10)
Martin Ashby 1968-1977 (10)
Ray Wilson 1967-1976 (10)
Malcolm Simmons 1973-1980 (8)
John Louis 1972-1979 (7) -  there was a further season when he averaged 8.99

Nigel Boocock and John Louis averaged above 11.00 in one season each. 

The number of seasons in which the riders averaged over 10.00 in the league was:
Eric Boocock 8
Nigel Boocock and Martin Ashby 7
Malcolm Simmons 5
Terry Betts 4
John Louis 4
Ray Wilson 2

[Sidney the robin]

On 4/13/2020 at 9:51 PM, BL65 said:

Looking at the league averages achieved in the top division as a measure of consistency shows the following:

The peak years of the seven riders measured by the consecutive seasons in which they attained a 9.00+ average
Terry Betts 1966-1977 (12 seasons)
Nigel Boocock 1963-1972 (10)
Eric Boocock 1965-1974 (10)
Martin Ashby 1968-1977 (10)
Ray Wilson 1967-1976 (10)
Malcolm Simmons 1973-1980 (8)
John Louis 1972-1979 (7) -  there was a further season when he averaged 8.99

Nigel Boocock and John Louis averaged above 11.00 in one season each. 

The number of seasons in which the riders averaged over 10.00 in the league was:
Eric Boocock 8
Nigel Boocock and Martin Ashby 7
Malcolm Simmons 5
Terry Betts 4
John Louis 4
Ray Wilson 2

Great post BL impressive stats for all concerned,  a year that always interested me was in 1969.Ivan Mauger dropped only a misely 9 points in 35 matches  averaging 11.74 beating the immortal Vic Duggan who dropped only 11 points in 1947. This  was the first time any rider had achieved an average dropping only single figures.

[BL65]

46 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

…  impressive stats for all concerned.....  

Compare the stats with those of another 'magnificent 7'.

Ivan Mauger averaged 9.00+ for 14 consecutive seasons, with 11 seasons at 10.00+ and 8 seasons at 11.00+
Barry Briggs averaged  9.00+ in 20 consecutive full seasons he competed (he missed one and virtually all of another), with 13 seasons over 10.00 and 3 over 11.00
Ronnie Moore averaged 9.00+ in 16 consecutive seasons in which he competed (he missed 1957 and 1964 to 1968), with 11 over 10.00 and 2 over 11.00
Bjorn Knutson averaged 9.00+ in 5 consecutive seasons, but only competed in 6 in Britain, with 2 seasons over 10.00
Peter Craven averaged 9.00+ in 8 consecutive seasons until his tragic loss, with 6 over 10.00 and 2 above 11.00
Ove Fundin averaged 9.00+ in 12 consecutive seasons in which he competed (with the commuting Swedes banned from the British League in 1965), with 9 above 10.00 and 4 above 11.00
Ole Olsen averaged 9.00+ in 15 consecutive seasons, with 11 above 10.00 and 3 over 11.00

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, BL65 said:

Compare the stats with those of another 'magnificent 7'.

Ivan Mauger averaged 9.00+ for 14 consecutive seasons, with 11 seasons at 10.00+ and 8 seasons at 11.00+
Barry Briggs averaged  9.00+ in 20 consecutive full seasons he competed (he missed one and virtually all of another), with 13 seasons over 10.00 and 3 over 11.00
Ronnie Moore averaged 9.00+ in 16 consecutive seasons in which he competed (he missed 1957 and 1964 to 1968), with 11 over 10.00 and 2 over 11.00
Bjorn Knutson averaged 9.00+ in 5 consecutive seasons, but only competed in 6 in Britain, with 2 seasons over 10.00
Peter Craven averaged 9.00+ in 8 consecutive seasons until his tragic loss, with 6 over 10.00 and 2 above 11.00
Ove Fundin averaged 9.00+ in 12 consecutive seasons in which he competed (with the commuting Swedes banned from the British League in 1965), with 9 above 10.00 and 4 above 11.00
Ole Olsen averaged 9.00+ in 15 consecutive seasons, with 11 above 10.00 and 3 over 11.00

I am blinkered sometimes !!!!! but the Briggs record  is mighty impressive longevity the most impressive aspect.           Looking through some stats from 1946/56 very interesting indeed how totally reliable they are i don't know.?   TOP scorers  from each year   1946.- Eric Langton-11.13.   1947. Vice Duggan - 11.54.     1948. Vice Duggan- 11.47.             1949.Vic Duggan- 10.64.   1950.  Graham Warren.- 10.55.      1951. Aub Lawson- 10.31         1952. Ronnie Moore- 11.36.       1953. Jack Young - 10.61.   1954. Ronnie Moore- 10.59.       1955. Ronnie Moore- 10.87.      1956. Barry Briggs-  10.53.       Mirac again with Duggan were both very dominant Mirac being in the top two riders from 1951 until 1956 an often forgotten LEGEND.

[DC2]

1 hour ago, BL65 said:

Compare the stats with those of another 'magnificent 7'.

Ivan Mauger averaged 9.00+ for 14 consecutive seasons, with 11 seasons at 10.00+ and 8 seasons at 11.00+
Barry Briggs averaged  9.00+ in 20 consecutive full seasons he competed (he missed one and virtually all of another), with 13 seasons over 10.00 and 3 over 11.00
Ronnie Moore averaged 9.00+ in 16 consecutive seasons in which he competed (he missed 1957 and 1964 to 1968), with 11 over 10.00 and 2 over 11.00
Bjorn Knutson averaged 9.00+ in 5 consecutive seasons, but only competed in 6 in Britain, with 2 seasons over 10.00
Peter Craven averaged 9.00+ in 8 consecutive seasons until his tragic loss, with 6 over 10.00 and 2 above 11.00
Ove Fundin averaged 9.00+ in 12 consecutive seasons in which he competed (with the commuting Swedes banned from the British League in 1965), with 9 above 10.00 and 4 above 11.00
Ole Olsen averaged 9.00+ in 15 consecutive seasons, with 11 above 10.00 and 3 over 11.00

 

Out of interest how do Hans Nielsen, Penhall, the Morans and Gundersen compare?

[BL65]

6 hours ago, DC2 said:

 

Out of interest how do Hans Nielsen, Penhall, the Morans and Gundersen compare?

Consecutive seasons in Britain with a 9.00+ average:
Nielsen 16, Gundersen 9 (until injury ended his career), S Moran 8, Penhall all 5 seasons that he competed, K Moran 2

Number of seasons with an average of 10.00+ (not consecutive):
Nielsen 13, Gundersen 6, Penhall 3, S Moran 1, K Moran 0

Number of seasons with an average of 11.00+
Nielsen 4, Gundersen 1, Penhall 1, S Moran 0, K Moran 0

[DC2]

6 minutes ago, BL65 said:

Consecutive seasons in Britain with a 9.00+ average:
Nielsen 16, Gundersen 9 (until injury ended his career), S Moran 8, Penhall all 5 seasons that he competed, K Moran 2

Number of seasons with an average of 10.00+ (not consecutive):
Nielsen 13, Gundersen 6, Penhall 3, S Moran 1, K Moran 0

Number of seasons with an average of 11.00+
Nielsen 4, Gundersen 1, Penhall 1, S Moran 0, K Moran 0

 

Thank you.

Apparently one season Nielsen averaged a perfect 12 away from home?

[E I Addio]

On 4/13/2020 at 12:28 AM, BOBBATH said:

Great thread and great comments everybody-have enjoyed reading them- for me, with the riders mentioned I have to go with NIgel Boocock as #1 by a mile-after much thought would place Ray Wilson #2 and Simmons #3. Was interested to see Norbolds mention of Norman Hunter at #14. Am interested also in the fact that both Hunter and Simmons of the Prov. League in 1963 opted to go up to NL in 1964 when the Prov. League was black-others like Colin Pratt did not. Do you think they may the right decision or would it have been better to be superstars in the Prov. League of 1964 (like say Charlie Monk or George Hunter)?? I know a couple of NL riders who thought they themselves should have gone the other way e.g. Ronnie Genz and Bob Andrews-would be interested in your thoughts.

Malcolm Simmons started the ‘64 season in the PL for a very short period , possibly a matter of days but changed when he realised that by riding in a “ pirate “ league he would lose his ACU licence and not be able to ride grass track where he was earning a lot of money , far more than from speedway at the time. Not sure about Norm the Storm but I suspect it was a combination of not wanting to lose his ACU licence and ambition. He always knew he was good and wanted to make it to the where he more than likely would have ended up if not for that terrible hand injury at Prestatyn.

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, DC2 said:

 

Thank you.

Apparently one season Nielsen averaged a perfect 12 away from home?

I'm sure that it was 1986.

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, BL65 said:

Consecutive seasons in Britain with a 9.00+ average:
Nielsen 16, Gundersen 9 (until injury ended his career), S Moran 8, Penhall all 5 seasons that he competed, K Moran 2

Number of seasons with an average of 10.00+ (not consecutive):
Nielsen 13, Gundersen 6, Penhall 3, S Moran 1, K Moran 0

Number of seasons with an average of 11.00+
Nielsen 4, Gundersen 1, Penhall 1, S Moran 0, K Moran 0

Looked through the records of Penhall , Nielsen, Lee, from (1979 /1983.)            Nielsen  1979- 10.16.   1980- 10.70.  1981- 9.80.   1982- 9.89.    1983- 10.82                           Penhall. 1979- 10.02     1980- 10.46.    1981- 11.01.     1982- 10.74.           Lee. 1979- 10.29.    1980- 10.17.        1981- 10.30.     1982-   9.65.        1983- 10.16  all very impressive figures .     Lee actually averaged over 10 points a meeting  six seasons out of seven from 1977- 83.

[BOBBATH]

Most interesting responses guys-some truly amazing stats there. Thanks.