England's best what order.??

[Sidney the robin]

World final appearances       N.Boocock 8, Ray Wilson 4, E.Boocock 3, Malcolm Simmons 3 T.Betts 1 M.Ashby 1 J.Louis 4.When rating riders this probably should be the biggest factor maybe the appearances show just how strong the era was.Only five world final appearances between Simmons, Betts, Ashby which is  quite amazing really.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Sidney the robin

[chunky]

57 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

World final appearances       N.Boocock 9, Ray Wilson 4, E.Boocock 3, Malcolm Simmons 3 T.Betts 1 M.Ashby 1 J.Louis 4.When rating riders this probably should be the biggest factor maybe the appearances show just how strong the era was.Only five world final appearances between Simmons, Betts, Ashby which is  quite amazing really.

As we have always said, for years, the most difficult round from which to qualify was the British Final.

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

As we have always said, for years, the most difficult round from which to qualify was the British Final.

I have on DVD the 1974 British Final...that was a tough final judging by those taking part.

Mauger, Briggs, Boulger, Sanders, Ray & Reg Wilson, Collins, Betts, Simmons, N & E Boocock, Valentine, Louis, Ashby, McMillan, Jessup...a real "who's who" of speedway back then. Of course by the following year (despite the non-participation of the Anzacs) it became even  more diffiult when only five (?) qualified and continued along that vein for a number of years.

[Sidney the robin]

9 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I have on DVD the 1974 British Final...that was a tough final judging by those taking part.

Mauger, Briggs, Boulger, Sanders, Ray & Reg Wilson, Collins, Betts, Simmons, N & E Boocock, Valentine, Louis, Ashby, McMillan, Jessup...a real "who's who" of speedway back then. Of course by the following year (despite the non-participation of the Anzacs) it became even  more diffiult when only five (?) qualified and continued along that vein for a number of years.

From 1961 /72 Briggs won 6 British titles with 5 places ,    Ivan won four titles with two places both dominated really apart from Craven's two title wins before his untimely death.

[steve roberts]

40 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

From 1961 /72 Briggs won 6 British titles with 5 places ,    Ivan won four titles with two places both dominated really apart from Craven's two title wins before his untimely death.

First British Final I attended was in 1978 when Gordon Kennett sneaked thru' after a run-off if I remember? Of course it was infamous for Peter Collins' 'sugar in the fuel' episode.

[E I Addio]

3 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

World final appearances       N.Boocock 9, Ray Wilson 4, E.Boocock 3, Malcolm Simmons 3 T.Betts 1 M.Ashby 1 J.Louis 4.When rating riders this probably should be the biggest factor maybe the appearances show just how strong the era was.Only five world final appearances between Simmons, Betts, Ashby which is  quite amazing really.

I suppose Sid you have to factor in ,  not only WF appearances but how well they did. Personally I am so hopelessly biased towards Simmo and Ashby, as personal favourites I find it difficult to be objective, but that said, I think Simmo at his best is probably the overall best but he wasn’t always at his best. N.Boocock was undoubtedly the most consistent over a long period, so on that basis he comes in at 1 . Simmo at his best v- Booey at his best  I think Simmo would get it from the gate. Booey was never a great gater, although he did improve as the years went on.

I also think Norman Hunter had the talent to be up with them if he had not had that bad hand injury at Prestatyn.

[Sidney the robin]

12 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

I suppose Sid you have to factor in ,  not only WF appearances but how well they did. Personally I am so hopelessly biased towards Simmo and Ashby, as personal favourites I find it difficult to be objective, but that said, I think Simmo at his best is probably the overall best but he wasn’t always at his best. N.Boocock was undoubtedly the most consistent over a long period, so on that basis he comes in at 1 . Simmo at his best v- Booey at his best  I think Simmo would get it from the gate. Booey was never a great gater, although he did improve as the years went on.

I also think Norman Hunter had the talent to be up with them if he had not had that bad hand injury at Prestatyn.

Yes Norman is a great shout Addio was averaging  well over 10 in 1969 and after that injury was never the same.Ashby has to go down as  a real frustration for me i see him everyweek and knew just how good he could be.His record does not stand up as it should have he had so much skill as a rider and i would say 1975 was his best year along with his Exeter spell.

[Lefty]

Coming in a bit late to this topic. From a Wolves perspective I had utmost respect for Nigel Boocock. He was unbeatable round the Green in the late 60's.  Then Norman Hunter came along and beat him three times in one night. He became a top Wolf that night. So sad that damn meeting in Prestatyn happened. Nowadays (until C-19 happened) I get the chance to take the dogs to Barkby beach and drive right past the Holiday Camp where the track was. Shame Pontlditz wasn't built earlier. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Lefty
Spelling

[chunky]

27 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Yes Norman is a great shout Addio was averaging  well over 10 in 1969 and after that injury was never the same.Ashby has to go down as  a real frustration for me i see him everyweek and knew just how good he could be.His record does not stand up as it should have he had so much skill as a rider and i would say 1975 was his best year along with his Exeter spell.

The thing that always amazed me was that Martin qualified relatively early in his career, but couldn't add to that as he matured.

[Sidney the robin]

Just now, chunky said:

The thing that always amazed me was that Martin qualified relatively early in his career, but couldn't add to that as he matured.

I think the run off with Ray in 1975 probably tells you everything about Martin really Chunky.The 1972 BLRC with ( Barry's  help ) showed you what he was capable of and it was only a peaking Olsen that beat him.He did ok internationally won the Superama and Victor Ludorum in Norden 1975  so he could mix it  with the best but when you analyse his career it does not do him justice really.

[chunky]

6 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I think the run off with Ray in 1975 probably tells you everything about Martin really Chunky.The 1972 BLRC with ( Barry's  help ) showed you what he was capable of and it was only a peaking Olsen that beat him.He did ok internationally won the Superama and Victor Ludorum in Norden 1975  so he could mix it  with the best but when you analyse his career it does not do him justice really.

WE knew what he was capable of. I just don't think HE knew...

[Sidney the robin]

53 minutes ago, chunky said:

WE knew what he was capable of. I just don't think HE knew...

Nail on the head chunky.

[steve roberts]

27 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Nail on the head chunky.

I always had great respect for him even though he did ride for the 'enemy' down the road!

[25yearfan]

Interesting thread!

I'd seriously dispute your claim these are Englands finest especially with the complete omission of any of Englands 7 individual World Champions messrs Price, Craven X 3, Woffinden X 3, Collins, Lee, Havelock and Loram and that's before considering others!

 

Although without doubt the 7 riders you name were all fine riders!

 

I'll play the game and name the riders in the order who I thought was the best out them!

 

1, Simmons - World no 2 in 1976, and 3 pairs and 4 World team cup golds. One British final win. Had his first League rides in 1963 till 87 then 2 short spells in 1989 and 1993!

 

2, Louis - World No 3 in 1975 as well as 1 pairs and 3 World team cup golds. One British final win. 1 BLRC win, the only rider out of the 7 to do so. 1st League rides 1970, Last - 1984.

 

3, Wilson - a few World finals, best placing 4th in 1971, one pairs win and 4 World team cup wins. One British championship win. League speedway 1963 - 1979.

 

4, Nigel Boocock - 8 World finals, best placing 4th in 1969, No pairs wins best placing 2 3rds, 3 2nd places in the British finals, 1 World team cup win. Rode League speedway from 1955 - 1980. 

 

5, Terry Betts - 1 World final came 12th, 1 World pairs win in 1972, 2 World team cup wins. One 2nd in British final. Rode League speedway from - 1960 - 1979.

 

6, Martin Ashby - One World final came 11th, one World pairs came 3rd, 2 World team cup wins, No top 3 British final appearances. Rode League speedway from 1961 - 1980.

 

7, Eric Boocock - 3 World finals best placing 7th, pairs one attempt came 3rd, 2 World team cups best finish 2nd, 1 British final win. Rode League speedway from 1961 till 1974 then a short stint in 1983. 

Stats courtesy of Wikipedia!

 

On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2020 at 11:26 AM, Sidney the robin said:

I was doing some memorabilia  recently in these boring times and came up with these seven British riders.In what order would all you other forum buffs have these riders in.??  N. Boocock - E.Boocock- Louis- Betts- Ashby- Wilson(Ray) Simmons. Here goes should be interesting.         1.Ray Wilson, 2. Simmons. 3.Louis. 4.E.Boocock 5. N.Boocock 6. Ashby 7. Betts very very difficult you could change your opinion everyday.

 

[norbold]

Out of interest, some years ago, Tony Mac asked me to compile my Top 20 British riders of the 1960s for "Classic Speedway". My no.1 was Nigel Boocock.

Others from Sid's list to appear were: Eric Boocock at no.5; Martin Ashby no.7; Ray Wilson 8 and Terry Betts 9. Norman Hunter has also been mentioned on here - I placed him at no.14.

[BOBBATH]

Great thread and great comments everybody-have enjoyed reading them- for me, with the riders mentioned I have to go with NIgel Boocock as #1 by a mile-after much thought would place Ray Wilson #2 and Simmons #3. Was interested to see Norbolds mention of Norman Hunter at #14. Am interested also in the fact that both Hunter and Simmons of the Prov. League in 1963 opted to go up to NL in 1964 when the Prov. League was black-others like Colin Pratt did not. Do you think they may the right decision or would it have been better to be superstars in the Prov. League of 1964 (like say Charlie Monk or George Hunter)?? I know a couple of NL riders who thought they themselves should have gone the other way e.g. Ronnie Genz and Bob Andrews-would be interested in your thoughts.

[chunky]

8 hours ago, 25yearfan said:

Interesting thread!

I'd seriously dispute your claim these are Englands finest

I don't think that this was meant to be "all-inclusive"; just sorting out a rating of these particular riders.  Of course,riders like Craven and Collins would be mentioned in a full list.

8 hours ago, 25yearfan said:

1, Simmons - World no 2 in 1976, and 3 pairs and 4 World team cup golds. One British final win. Had his first League rides in 1963 till 87 then 2 short spells in 1989 and 1993!

2, Louis - World No 3 in 1975 as well as 1 pairs and 3 World team cup golds. One British final win. 1 BLRC win, the only rider out of the 7 to do so. 1st League rides 1970, Last - 1984.

3, Wilson - a few World finals, best placing 4th in 1971, one pairs win and 4 World team cup wins. One British championship win. League speedway 1963 - 1979.

4, Nigel Boocock - 8 World finals, best placing 4th in 1969, No pairs wins best placing 2 3rds, 3 2nd places in the British finals, 1 World team cup win. Rode League speedway from 1955 - 1980. 

5, Terry Betts - 1 World final came 12th, 1 World pairs win in 1972, 2 World team cup wins. One 2nd in British final. Rode League speedway from - 1960 - 1979.

6, Martin Ashby - One World final came 11th, one World pairs came 3rd, 2 World team cup wins, No top 3 British final appearances. Rode League speedway from 1961 - 1980.

7, Eric Boocock - 3 World finals best placing 7th, pairs one attempt came 3rd, 2 World team cups best finish 2nd, 1 British final win. Rode League speedway from 1961 till 1974 then a short stint in 1983. 

Firstly, as has been discussed here before, World Team Cups aren't really an indication of "individual ability".  A specific example is PC's three World Team Cup Final maximums.  Yes, it was an achievement, but the ONLY true world-class rider he faced in those was Michanek.

Again, while World Pairs wins are a more accurate representation, riders like Nigel Boocock shouldn't  be penalised for not having pairs wins when his best years were in an era when the event didn't exist!

I admit that Eric Boocock didn't achieve much on the international stage, but his BL record and consistency should count for something, and year in, year out, produced figures better than several others mentioned here.

Edited April 13, 2020 by chunky

[BOBBATH]

More interesting comments-guess many of us have read the Eric Boocock biography-I think that contained comments that showed his strengths and weaknesses-just a job to Eric. Great rider bur in my view couldn't compare to brother Nigel

[Sidney the robin]

5 hours ago, BOBBATH said:

More interesting comments-guess many of us have read the Eric Boocock biography-I think that contained comments that showed his strengths and weaknesses-just a job to Eric. Great rider bur in my view couldn't compare to brother Nigel

I think Nigel and Eric both had different qualities Bobbath, Nigel had guts tenacity a true racer Eric was more of a thinking rider..Entertainment wise i would have to say to this day Nigel is one of the most exciting riders i have ever seen and his Blue leathers gave him a real identity.Eric league wise was ridiculously consistent year after year posting great figures a  thing that struck me was when  Eric said  that he had ridden better in other British Finals than he had in 1974.My uncle told me Nigel along with Arthur Forrest( who I never did see  race) were both box office riders never a boring moment when they raced.Nigel would be up there with Collins, Gollob, Ward, Crump ( jnr) Morton as real in/ out racers.

[steve roberts]

21 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I think Nigel and Eric both had different qualities Bobbath, Nigel had guts tenacity a true racer Eric was more of a thinking rider..Entertainment wise i would have to say to this day Nigel is one of the most exciting riders i have ever seen and his Blue leathers gave him a real identity.Eric league wise was ridiculously consistent year after year posting great figures a  thing that struck me was when  Eric said  that he had ridden better in other British Finals than he had in 1974.My uncle told me Nigel along with Arthur Forrest( who I never did see  race) were both box office riders never a boring moment when they raced.Nigel would be up there with Collins, Gollob, Ward, Crump ( jnr) Morton as real in/ out racers.

Unfortunately Nigel was nearing the end of his illustrious career when I first went to speedway although he did continue somewhat further after his best efforts (Bristol & Canterbury) so I never really saw him at his spectacular best. Eric retired whilst still at the top and very nearly joined "The Rebels" in 1975 but had decided to go into management. He made a brief comeback (1983) and admitted later he shouldn't have. Why he hasn't been recognised with an MBE for services to the sport I'll never know having devoted his working life to speedway.