In what order would you place these Aussie greats???

[chunky]

4 hours ago, YerRopes said:

I agree with that.. 

However for pure talent on a motorcycle, Ward is right up there with Kelly Moran and Michael Lee.. 

 

Uunfortunately, talent and potential doesn't equal greatness. We have three supremely talented individuals there who mustered just a single world title between them.

[norbold]

20 hours ago, E I Addio said:

 

BTW, what happened to the under rated Aub Lawson when considering great Aussies ? 
 

Two points. 
1. If we are considering all Aussies and not just the five Sidney randomly chose in the op, you would certainly have to also include Frank Arthur, Vic Huxley, Max Grosskreutz, Bluey Wilkinson, Lionel Van Praag, Vic Duggan, Graham Warren amongst others. 

2. As for Aub Lawson, he would most certainly have to be considered for a top five place. He had an amazing  career, being a leading rider from 1939 to 1960. One of the longest careers as a top class rider of anyone in the history of the sport, along with riders like Jack Parker, Ronnie Moore and Greg Hancock and even though his best years were probably just after the War, he was still, towards the end of his career, able to mix it with the likes of the "Big Five". In fact he was one of only three riders to break the World Championship Podium monopoly of the "Big Five" between 1955 and 1963, when he came third in 1958. (The other two by the way were Arthur Forrest and Gote Nordin.)

Edited March 31, 2020 by norbold
Typo!

[iris123]

Certainly Grosskreutz had a relatively long career, from the late 20s until the 50s I think, whereas a lot of the early Aussie greats seemed to get in, earn a lot of money and get out of the sport fairly quickly .He did though, retire and comeback a number of time. Once I think his retirement only lasted a couple of weeks

Edited March 31, 2020 by iris123

[Split]

14 hours ago, norbold said:

Two points. 
1. If we are considering all Aussies and not just the five Sidney randomly chose in the op, you would certainly have to also include Frank Arthur, Vic Huxley, Max Grosskreutz, Bluey Wilkinson, Lionel Van Praag, Vic Duggan, Graham Warren amongst others. 

2. As for Aub Lawson, he would most certainly have to be considered for a top five place. He had an amazing  career, being a leading rider from 1939 to 1960. One of the longest careers as a top class rider of anyone in the history of the sport, along with riders like Jack Parker, Ronnie Moore and Greg Hancock and even though his best years were probably just after the War, he was still, towards the end of his career, able to mix it with the likes of the "Big Five". In fact he was one of only three riders to break the World Championship Podium monopoly of the "Big Five" between 1955 and 1963, when he came third in 1958. (The other two by the way were Arthur Forrest and Gote Nordic.)

If we extend that period to 1965, Igor Plechanov (twice runner -up) comes into the picture.  It’s generally accepted that the “Big Five” – were in a class of their own during the early - mid '60's but who was the best rider outside that elite club? Ron How, Ken McKinley, Peter Moore and Gote Nordin come to mind but Plechanov edges it for me. Many people (me included) consider him possibly the best rider never to win the world title.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Split

[iris123]

I would have loved to have seen those early Soviet tests in the 60s. Well, I might have, but have no memory of which teams I saw in those days

[moomin man 76]

In my humble opinion, I would place Jason Crump (1st), Jack Young (2nd), Leigh Adams (3rd), Vic Duggan (4th) and probably one of the pre-WW2 Aussies e.g. Grosskreutz or Wilkinson 5th.

Darcy Ward could have achieved a lot more, but for his career being finished by injury. Unfortunately, he doesn't make the top five on achievement for that reason; not aided by some poor decisions/lifestyle choices earlier in his career.

Chris Holder won a GP Series to be crowned World Champion, but having reached the summit, his career seems to have headed downhill. Others mentioned, such as Billy Sanders were never amongst the elite at the top of the sport in the late 1970s and early 1980s. I don't think he can be compared to the likes of Olsen, Mauger, Penhall, Gundersen, Nielsen and Lee, who were around in the same period.

[norbold]

1 hour ago, Split said:

If we extend that period to 1965, Igor Plechanov (twice runner -up) comes into the picture.  It’s generally accepted that the “Big Five” – were in a class of their own during the early - mid '60's but who was the best rider outside that elite club? Ron How, Ken McKinley, Peter Moore and Gote Nordin come to mind but Plechanov edges it for me. Many people (me included) consider him possibly the best rider never to win the world title.

I would agree with that. It's a shame Plechanov was unable to ride in the West on a regular basis. Had he done so, I think he would have won at least one World title and we may be talking about a "Big Six".

[norbold]

41 minutes ago, moomin man 76 said:

In my humble opinion, I would place Jason Crump (1st), Jack Young (2nd), Leigh Adams (3rd), Vic Duggan (4th) and probably one of the pre-WW2 Aussies e.g. Grosskreutz or Wilkinson 5th.

 

It is, of course, really impossible to talk about pre-War from a first hand knowledge of having seen the riders and then comparing them with more recent riders and those still around today, but going purely on the record books and discussions I have had in the past with those who were around at that time, I think the two outstanding Aussies from that period were Vic Huxley, the dominant rider (all nationalities) of the late 20s and early 30s and Bluey Wilkinson, the dominant rider (all nationalities) of the late 1930s.

In fact, again, just purely from records and talking, I would place them as one and two in the all time Aussie list. I would also certainly put Vic Duggan above Leigh Adams.

[Split]

1 hour ago, norbold said:

It is, of course, really impossible to talk about pre-War from a first hand knowledge of having seen the riders and then comparing them with more recent riders and those still around today, but going purely on the record books and discussions I have had in the past with those who were around at that time, I think the two outstanding Aussies from that period were Vic Huxley, the dominant rider (all nationalities) of the late 20s and early 30s and Bluey Wilkinson, the dominant rider (all nationalities) of the late 1930s.

In fact, again, just purely from records and talking, I would place them as one and two in the all time Aussie list. I would also certainly put Vic Duggan above Leigh Adams.

I think I may have mentioned this in a previous post but I remember coming across a stat that said that Vic Huxley had the best start/win ratio of any rider in the history of the sport. Of course it’s difficult to compare riders of a bygone era with those of modern times but a record like that is hard to argue with.

[Sidney the robin]

4 hours ago, norbold said:

I would agree with that. It's a shame Plechanov was unable to ride in the West on a regular basis. Had he done so, I think he would have won at least one World title and we may be talking about a "Big Six".

Yes Plechanov can be named amongst   Adams,Harrfeldt, , Jessup ,Sigalos,Warren   as riders who were all good anough to be World Champion.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Sidney the robin

[sharpandroid]

Alphabetical

[iris123]

On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2020 at 4:16 PM, norbold said:

It is, of course, really impossible to talk about pre-War from a first hand knowledge of having seen the riders and then comparing them with more recent riders and those still around today, but going purely on the record books and discussions I have had in the past with those who were around at that time, I think the two outstanding Aussies from that period were Vic Huxley, the dominant rider (all nationalities) of the late 20s and early 30s and Bluey Wilkinson, the dominant rider (all nationalities) of the late 1930s.

In fact, again, just purely from records and talking, I would place them as one and two in the all time Aussie list. I would also certainly put Vic Duggan above Leigh Adams.

I think there was something of a crisis pre-war in that Australia lacked newcomers and were relying on the pioneer riders for some time and some of them were retiring fairly early, like Arthur and Huxley

[Pinny]

Often heard at Newport oldies say Phil Crump had more talent than Jason but didn’t have the cutting edge to be world champ. 
 

Jason crump I thought was superb , had it all he really did. Was unlucky to be around in Richardson’s era else he could of had 4/5/6 titles to his name. 

[E I Addio]

19 minutes ago, Pinny said:

 

Jason crump I thought was superb , had it all he really did. Was unlucky to be around in Richardson’s era else he could of had 4/5/6 titles to his name. 

My view entirely. Jason was a bit of a hothead early on but as you say he really had it all in the finish . Personally I would put him among the all time greats

[steve roberts]

49 minutes ago, Pinny said:

Often heard at Newport oldies say Phil Crump had more talent than Jason but didn’t have the cutting edge to be world champ. 
 

Jason crump I thought was superb , had it all he really did. Was unlucky to be around in Richardson’s era else he could of had 4/5/6 titles to his name. 

I remember Phil when he was at Newport (1974) and he was almost unbeatable round there after a season out thru' injury and was superb...lowering the long existing Oxford track record in the process. Of course by 1975 he was riding the Street 4 Valve conversion which enable him to get a head start on many before the four valve revolution crept its way into speedway. He was a class act up until a very bad crash at Sheffield in 1977 and from then onwards remained a solid dependable number one for a number of seasons but lost out on the international stage in my opinion.

[Pinny]

7 hours ago, E I Addio said:

My view entirely. Jason was a bit of a hothead early on but as you say he really had it all in the finish . Personally I would put him among the all time greats

When i first got into the sport he wasnt very popular , due to him being a spoilt brat type character but he certainly got my respect as years went by. Any rider who won a title during Rickardssons years deserves a lot of credit. 

[Pinny]

6 hours ago, steve roberts said:

I remember Phil when he was at Newport (1974) and he was almost unbeatable round there after a season out thru' injury and was superb...lowering the long existing Oxford track record in the process. Of course by 1975 he was riding the Street 4 Valve conversion which enable him to get a head start on many before the four valve revolution crept its way into speedway. He was a class act up until a very bad crash at Sheffield in 1977 and from then onwards remained a solid dependable number one for a number of seasons but lost out on the international stage in my opinion.

Never seen him ride obviously but the oldies at Newport absolutely loved him so must of been pretty good!!!! 
 

a class speedway family , Neil Street was a great bloke too

[steve roberts]

15 minutes ago, Pinny said:

When i first got into the sport he wasnt very popular , due to him being a spoilt brat type character but he certainly got my respect as years went by. Any rider who won a title during Rickardssons years deserves a lot of credit. 

I lost a bit of respect for Jason during the year he rode for Oxford when he slapped team mate Todd Wiltshire after a racing incident which was purely accidental however I re-gained my faith in him in later years when he went on to become one of the world beaters and mellowed...like us all, I suppose, with age comes a more mature approach to life in general or I would hope!

Edited May 9, 2020 by steve roberts

[chunky]

11 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I lost a bit of respect for Jason during the year he rode for Oxford when he slapped team mate Todd Wiltshire after a racing incident which was purely accidental however I re-gained my faith in him in later years when he went on to become one of the world beaters and mellowed...like us all, I suppose, with age comes a more mature approach to life in general or I would hope!

I think that most of us had a problem with Jason in his early years (because of his attitude), but I too developed a much greater respect for him as he matured.

Funny thing is, I was talking to his manager (before Jason reached his greatness), and he said that Jason needed his dad's attitude and temperament, and that Phil would have greatly benefited from Jason's drive and tenacity. Basically, a combination of the two Crumps would have been the perfect speedway rider!

[Pinny]

3 minutes ago, chunky said:

I think that most of us had a problem with Jason in his early years (because of his attitude), but I too developed a much greater respect for him as he matured.

Funny thing is, I was talking to his manager (before Jason reached his greatness), and he said that Jason needed his dad's attitude and temperament, and that Phil would have greatly benefited from Jason's drive and tenacity. Basically, a combination of the two Crumps would have been the perfect speedway rider!

I think post 2000 ish Jason alone was the perfect speedway rider.