In what order would you place these Aussie greats???

[Terry]

4 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

Remember Carter refering that Muller was on an illegal machine, how many laps did Egon get to do at Norden before the final. ?

As many as he wanted I guess. Just like the Swedes and the Poles gave their riders plenty of track time when they were staging the final.

It was only England that wouldn't give their riders extra practice. God forbid our riders getting any kind of advantage!

[waiheke1]

10 hours ago, norbold said:

Hmm...difficult one that. Especially deciding between Crump Jnr and Youngie for no. 1. Apart from Fundin, Crump Jnr is the only rider to finish on the podium in ten successive seasons which should make him the no.1. However, I would say that at no time was he clearly the best rider in the world in the same way that Young was. Young dominated the early 1950s in the same way as say Rickardsson did in the 2000s. To offset that however, Youngie was not in or around the elite for as long as Crumpie. My instinct would be that if we are looking at Young just in the first three or four years of the 1950s, then he would be top. If over their whole career, then Crump Jnr.

So, having weighed all that up, I would go for 1. Crump Jnr 2. Young 3. Adams 4. Sanders 5. Crump Snr.

Agree with this list. Sanders vs Crump is interesting. I'd be inclined to rate Crump the better rider - both for longevity and peak ability- but Billy unquestionably had the better world final record, which is the ultimate measure.

If we were to throw in other Aussies from the modern era I'd have Doyle at three, and Holder just behind Adams. Where to put Darcy is a real question mark, probably I'd have him behind Doyle. 

[waiheke1]

10 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

Would Muller even on a monster of an engine ever of won a final outside of Germany i have my doubts.In 1983 you had to be there to witness how dominant he was on the day he destroyed a very good line up.

An awful final, not the greatest line up, but the first world final i attended and Muller as you say destroyed the field. I think a GP series on the big Polish tracks of today would have suited him immensely. I'd suggest his mid-table placing in the 81 world final gives a pretty fair indication of his ability in comparison to others of that era.

[steve roberts]

8 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Agree with this list. Sanders vs Crump is interesting. I'd be inclined to rate Crump the better rider - both for longevity and peak ability- but Billy unquestionably had the better world final record, which is the ultimate measure.

If we were to throw in other Aussies from the modern era I'd have Doyle at three, and Holder just behind Adams. Where to put Darcy is a real question mark, probably I'd have him behind Doyle. 

I agree that Billy was the better rider on the international stage (Individual & Pairs) but rated Phil the better of the two at domestic level. Never saw Doyle or Holder ride and unfortunately I am only aware of Ward's off track 'activities'.

Edited March 30, 2020 by steve roberts

[JOS50]

10 hours ago, Terry said:

As many as he wanted I guess. Just like the Swedes and the Poles gave their riders plenty of track time when they were staging the final.

It was only England that wouldn't give their riders extra practice. God forbid our riders getting any kind of advantage!

Freddie Williams

[Terry]

9 minutes ago, JOS50 said:

Freddie Williams

Fair enough. I was thinking more Wembley in the 70's.

[Sidney the robin]

Ward i had the pleasure of seeing him in his stint with the Robins, what a talent he was he had mega abillity.

[waiheke1]

5 hours ago, steve roberts said:

I agree that Billy was the better rider on the international stage (Individual & Pairs) but rated Phil the better of the two at domestic level. Never saw Doyle or Holder ride and unfortunately I am only aware of Ward's off track 'activities'.

get on youtube and watch Ward. imo, the most exciting rider to watch of my era watching speedway (80s onwards)

[DC2]

11 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

get on youtube and watch Ward. imo, the most exciting rider to watch of my era watching speedway (80s onwards)

 

Darcy Ward was the rider who could do everything, including things I’d never seen before.

 

[Sidney the robin]

5 hours ago, DC2 said:

 

Darcy Ward was the rider who could do everything, including things I’d never seen before.

 

Those few months he rode for the Robins however brief was a real privilege he was so quick great from the back.However brief the stint was, for me he goes alongside Briggs, Crump x 2) Ashby, Kilby, Broadbanks, Adams, Autrey, as one of the best Swindon riders that i ever saw.The Speedway world were robbed of seeing Darcy fulfill his mega potential i just hope whatever he is doing now in life  he is happy.

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Sidney the robin

[YerRopes]

Hate to say it, but without doubt Darcy Ward first, followed by Leigh Adams in second (I may be biased) and Jason Crump third.. 

Doyley hopefully soon.. 

[DC2]

1 minute ago, YerRopes said:

Hate to say it, but without doubt Darcy Ward first, followed by Leigh Adams in second (I may be biased) and Jason Crump third.. 

Doyley hopefully soon.. 

 

The one thing Leigh achieved which Darcy didn’t was unbelievable consistency everywhere he rode over a very long period and not picking and choosing his degree of commitment.

 

[YerRopes]

1 minute ago, DC2 said:

 

The one thing Leigh achieved which Darcy didn’t was unbelievable consistency everywhere he rode over a very long period and not picking and choosing his degree of commitment.

 

I agree with that.. 

However for pure talent on a motorcycle, Ward is right up there with Kelly Moran and Michael Lee.. 

 

[E I Addio]

On 3/29/2020 at 11:43 AM, norbold said:

Hmm...difficult one that. Especially deciding between Crump Jnr and Youngie for no. 1. Apart from Fundin, Crump Jnr is the only rider to finish on the podium in ten successive seasons which should make him the no.1. However, I would say that at no time was he clearly the best rider in the world in the same way that Young was. Young dominated the early 1950s in the same way as say Rickardsson did in the 2000s. To offset that however, Youngie was not in or around the elite for as long as Crumpie. My instinct would be that if we are looking at Young just in the first three or four years of the 1950s, then he would be top. If over their whole career, then Crump Jnr.

So, having weighed all that up, I would go for 1. Crump Jnr 2. Young 3. Adams 4. Sanders 5. Crump Snr.

Good post. The only thing I would add is that from everything I have read about Jack Young it seems that good as he was he wasn’t as good as he could have been. He didn’t even start till he was into his 20’s, and in a very different world in those days it seems he didnt take things too seriously. One might say he was perhaps one of the last of what we might call the paid “amateurs” . No special fitness regimes, no special engines, he seems to have relied on pure talent . I think he was world champion within about 5 years of taking the sport up on a converted road bike, and by his second season he was beating some of the top Aussies of the day. In his first season with Edinburgh in the Second Division he beat Jack Parker twice in a special match race. He was perhaps a tad lucky with his first World Final win, that Jackie Biggs nerves apparently got the better of him , but being World Champion means you have to overcome your nerves. I forget the actual statistics when he replaced the great Aub Lawson at West Ham but it was something like 19 maximums in 38 matches.  But the speedway world was about to change when Fundin and Briggs came along....

I wouldn’t object to Jack Young being placed second to Crump but he certainly deserves a top two position.

BTW, what happened to the under rated Aub Lawson when considering great Aussies ? 
 

Coming back to Crump J., though, he was somewhat unlucky to be around at the same time as one of speedways all time legends. If there had been no Richardson how many World Titles would Jason have won ? 

[BluPanther]

10 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

Good post. The only thing I would add is that from everything I have read about Jack Young it seems that good as he was he wasn’t as good as he could have been. He didn’t even start till he was into his 20’s, and in a very different world in those days it seems he didnt take things too seriously. One might say he was perhaps one of the last of what we might call the paid “amateurs” . No special fitness regimes, no special engines, he seems to have relied on pure talent . I think he was world champion within about 5 years of taking the sport up on a converted road bike, and by his second season he was beating some of the top Aussies of the day. In his first season with Edinburgh in the Second Division he beat Jack Parker twice in a special match race. He was perhaps a tad lucky with his first World Final win, that Jackie Biggs nerves apparently got the better of him , but being World Champion means you have to overcome your nerves. I forget the actual statistics when he replaced the great Aub Lawson at West Ham but it was something like 19 maximums in 38 matches.  But the speedway world was about to change when Fundin and Briggs came along....

I wouldn’t object to Jack Young being placed second to Crump but he certainly deserves a top two position.

BTW, what happened to the under rated Aub Lawson when considering great Aussies ? 
 

Coming back to Crump J., though, he was somewhat unlucky to be around at the same time as one of speedways all time legends. If there had been no Richardson how many World Titles would Jason have won ? 

Three more i would say...

[Sidney the robin]

9 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

Good post. The only thing I would add is that from everything I have read about Jack Young it seems that good as he was he wasn’t as good as he could have been. He didn’t even start till he was into his 20’s, and in a very different world in those days it seems he didnt take things too seriously. One might say he was perhaps one of the last of what we might call the paid “amateurs” . No special fitness regimes, no special engines, he seems to have relied on pure talent . I think he was world champion within about 5 years of taking the sport up on a converted road bike, and by his second season he was beating some of the top Aussies of the day. In his first season with Edinburgh in the Second Division he beat Jack Parker twice in a special match race. He was perhaps a tad lucky with his first World Final win, that Jackie Biggs nerves apparently got the better of him , but being World Champion means you have to overcome your nerves. I forget the actual statistics when he replaced the great Aub Lawson at West Ham but it was something like 19 maximums in 38 matches.  But the speedway world was about to change when Fundin and Briggs came along....

I wouldn’t object to Jack Young being placed second to Crump but he certainly deserves a top two position.

BTW, what happened to the under rated Aub Lawson when considering great Aussies ? 
 

Coming back to Crump J., though, he was somewhat unlucky to be around at the same time as one of speedways all time legends. If there had been no Richardson how many World Titles would Jason have won ? 

Addio i actually think that to keep sticking at it like Jason did took some doing he was often playing second fiddle to Ricko.. His consistently over a long period was superb and i can also remember in his younger days he was a bit of a hothead and not flavour of the month with everybody.But how he ended up being a complete professional a superb example to young riders and he went out at the top.Going back to Young do you think Jack was similar to Ronnie Moore  Addio??? Mirac  never took thing's that seriously but what a rider he was his legacy will live forever.

[Terry]

Watching all the countless 5-1's Ward and Holder got at Poole, Darcy always seemed to be controlling the race and creating the space for his partner. He had a great racing brain..Such a loss for the sport when he suffered his injury.

 

[E I Addio]

28 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Addio i actually think that to keep sticking at it like Jason did took some doing he was often playing second fiddle to Ricko.. His consistently over a long period was superb and i can also remember in his younger days he was a bit of a hothead and not flavour of the month with everybody.But how he ended up being a complete professional a superb example to young riders and he went out at the top.Going back to Young do you think Jack was similar to Ronnie Moore  Addio??? Mirac  never took thing's that seriously but what a rider he was his legacy will live forever.

You raise a good point Sid .  I think Jack and Ronnie were probably very, very , similar in many ways. I only saw Ronnie Moore at the end of his career after he came back from retirement but boy he was good. His effortless style made an impression that still sticks with me today. Not surprising that many people say Ronnie was the most naturally talented rider that ever sat on a bike. Jack was said to have an “armchair ‘style  in the sense he just sat on the bike as if he was sitting in an armchair, letting the bike do all the work, unlike many later riders that climb all over the bike. 
Leigh Adams was another like it . A very unspectacular style, but not an ounce of effort wasted, and with the bike under perfect control at all times, and an uncanny ability to find grip where others couldn’t.

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by E I Addio

[waiheke1]

49 minutes ago, Terry said:

Watching all the countless 5-1's Ward and Holder got at Poole, Darcy always seemed to be controlling the race and creating the space for his partner. He had a great racing brain..Such a loss for the sport when he suffered his injury.

 

I agree. I remember the first time i saw Darcy live, he just seemed to see lines that other riders didn't and be seconds ahead in his vision. Of all the riders lost prematurely to the sport in my era watching, his was the one I was most gutted about being lost to speedway. 

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, E I Addio said:

You raise a good point Sid .  I think Jack and Ronnie were probably very, very , similar in many ways. I only saw Ronnie Moore at the end of his career after he came back from retirement but boy he was good. His effortless style made an impression that still sticks with me today. Not surprising that many people say Ronnie was the most naturally talented rider that ever sat on a bike. Jack was said to have an “armchair ‘style  in the sense he just sat on the bike as if he was sitting in an armchair, letting the bike do all the work, unlike many later riders that climb all over the bike. 
Leigh Adams was another like it . A very unspectacular style, but not an ounce of effort wasted, and with the bike under perfect control at all times, and an uncanny ability to find grip where others couldn’t.

 

I only see Ronnie ride 4/5 times yet like yourself he left an impression on me a superb stylist who didn't look the quickest but boy his track craft was second to none.To think he had the six year lay off until 1969  yet came back to ride at a really high level.And really his time was the mid 50s both Briggo/Ivan said he was a better rider than both of them  and really that says it all.On you tube the DVD of Wimbledon shows Ronnie beating Ivan at Plough lane never tire of watching that race Ronnie totally controlling it .

Edited March 30, 2020 by Sidney the robin