mikebv Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 (edited) FWIW (not much), here is my take.. If any team racing takes place I would suggest it will be littered with guests as so many riders either won't come back as it won't be worthwhile, or Poland and Sweden will be wanting the same riders and paying more, or both leagues will want the same riders on the same night as they cram fixtures in.. Therefore, maybe it's best to scrap the team aspect this season altogether and see if running well promoted (and sponsored) individual events, on the nights each club would like to run, could be a money maker? Riders will want to race as much as they can in a very short space of time so maybe giving the majority of them all seven nights a week to earn their corn could work? A format such as this maybe could work? 12 riders, 3 groups of four, four races per group so all have a start position from every gate. Winner of each group goes to the final, runners up of the three groups and highest scoring third place rider go into a race off. Four play off races later the finalists are known... A four race final and that's 20 heats of Speedway. (Maybe more if run offs are needed for the best third place rider, play off, and any ties in the Final.. Minimum £1000 a rider meaning the 'fourths' earn £3k, £1200 for the two third place riders meaning £2400, the two 'seconds' who failed to reach the final, and the top scoring third place rider earn £1400 meaning £4200, and the finalists earning £1600, £1800, £2000 and £2500, A total of £17500, (is that similar to what clubs pay out now for the home and away costs from their one home meeting for their seven rders?). Could the Premiership clubs get 2000 or so on their best night? Paying circa £18 to watch 12 riders Premiership Heat Leader/Second string level or Championship heat leader standard? If so they would make a fair few quid. . Championship clubs might need to reduce the prize fund accordingly to suit their income (and bring in a lower level of rider), but each track using 12 riders would mean several of them being able to ride four of five times a week (and maybe more).. Should we get say a 10 week season then 40 or 50 or so meetings for some of the riders would help them offset some of their season losses I would think. . And maybe racing on nights that the clubs feel can bring in most fans might prove to be a pointer for the future..? Edited March 30, 2020 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben91 Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 8 hours ago, MattK said: Being noisy, dirt and anti-social are not necessarily bad things. Look at the massive popularity of mixed martial arts. The top fighters earn millions, as do the owners of UFC. It depends how they are promoted. I remember Lakeside promoting speedway as an extreme sport, which I always thought was a great angle for precisely the reasons you describe. However, other clubs promote it as family friendly, which I never really understood. Again, a fundamental problem with speedway is that they don't know who their target market is, so take a scatter gun approach to trying to get new fans. Speedway doesn’t know it’s identity and that’s half the issue. It is dirt track racing. Yet the riders expect it to be their full time job. Promoters expect fans to pay upwards of £18 at the top level for less than 15 minutes of action (terrible value for money). Fans expect facilities befitting of the price they pay and don’t get them. Landlords expect their rent and don’t care how much money the speedway makes or doesn’t make. The problems are deep rooted. What needs to happen is a proper reset, if that means going back to being a semi-professional sport then so be it. One constant that I always find is that as fans we seem to be bottom of the totem pole when it comes to priorities within the sport. Realistically it should be opposite. There will always be people willing to race Speedway for the love (granted they may not be of as high a standard as some riders in British speedway now) but there won’t always be fans if the sport continues to be run the way it is now. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAST GATER Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 57 minutes ago, Ben91 said: Speedway doesn’t know it’s identity and that’s half the issue. It is dirt track racing. Yet the riders expect it to be their full time job. Promoters expect fans to pay upwards of £18 at the top level for less than 15 minutes of action (terrible value for money). Fans expect facilities befitting of the price they pay and don’t get them. Landlords expect their rent and don’t care how much money the speedway makes or doesn’t make. The problems are deep rooted. What needs to happen is a proper reset, if that means going back to being a semi-professional sport then so be it. One constant that I always find is that as fans we seem to be bottom of the totem pole when it comes to priorities within the sport. Realistically it should be opposite. There will always be people willing to race Speedway for the love (granted they may not be of as high a standard as some riders in British speedway now) but there won’t always be fans if the sport continues to be run the way it is now. In the 70's they were all mainly semi pro except for the likes of Mauger ,Olsen and the mighty Mich and that was said to be the heyday's of the sport . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon1983 Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 I'm working on my plan for british speedway (if I had any sort of voice that is) going to take me most of the week to put it together but will post it up. Might like it if you like cricket (I don't like cricket). Stay tuned for Friday haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, FAST GATER said: In the 70's they were all mainly semi pro except for the likes of Mauger ,Olsen and the mighty Mich and that was said to be the heyday's of the sport . Many riders were more than happy to ride Speedway whilst holding down another job.. Riders could earn a weeks money (and even more) from their other job in just one night of Speedway.. Ride for just four nights and you had the same as your months salary from your other job, and many rode four or five nights a week.. But then again, back then, not many spent fortunes on engine tuming, the latest carbs, clutches, etc etc etc, like so many seem to do now for their ever growing stable of bikes that they use in various countries... The costs seem to have grown year on year whilst the income to pay the riders to pay these costs has eroded away almost annually... Higher salary costs to help riders cover their costs, often results in admission cost increases which then means less fans attending, which then results in more admission cost increases to cover the shortfall, which then results in less fans attending, and on and on it goes.. The tipping point can't be far away, (If it hasn't already happened).. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon1983 Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 My old man used to be a container repairer down the docks and ride speedway tho he was self employed so could down tools to do the northern tour over a few days. He earned good money in both back in the day What he didnt have was a band of sponsors as with the now digital world it was harder to get in touch with sponsors back then as no internet lol easier to approach businesses now with the level of access available One bike as well all stuffed into a citroen estate. No van 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAST GATER Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, mikebv said: Many riders were more than happy to ride Speedway whilst holding down another job.. Riders could earn a weeks money (and even more) from their other job in just one night of Speedway.. Ride for just four nights and you had the same as your months salary from your other job, and many rode four or five nights a week.. But then again, back then, not many spent fortunes on engine tuming, the latest carbs, clutches, etc etc etc, like so many seem to do now for their ever growing stable of bikes that they use in various countries... The costs seem to have grown year on year whilst the income to pay the riders to pay these costs has eroded away almost annually... Higher salary costs to help riders cover their costs, often results in admission cost increases which then means less fans attending, which then results in more admission cost increases to cover the shortfall, which then results in less fans attending, and on and on it goes.. The tipping point can't be far away, (If it hasn't already happened).. As I have said we got out when it all went silly ,from my own point of view the Street conversion was the start of the real problems from then on costs went through the roof .The only real mod we had to the engines before that was what they called a Piper Conversion ( having a larger than standard exhaust valve) . Edited March 31, 2020 by FAST GATER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 11 hours ago, mikebv said: Could the Premiership clubs get 2000 or so on their best night? Paying circa £18 to watch 12 riders Premiership Heat Leader/Second string level or Championship heat leader standard? If so they would make a fair few quid. . Thinking of King's Lynn - I believe that they could pull 2.000 on a Saturday night with the right kind of team format and visiting team variety to make the proposed scheme viable. Providing that the quality of racing on track makes it a VFM night out for the supporters. Riders have a major part to play in making the racing worth watching and rebuilding the sport in 2021. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, FAST GATER said: As I have said we got out when it all went silly ,from my own point of view the Street conversion was the start of the real problems from then on costs went through the roof .The only real mod we had to the engines before that was what they called a Piper Conversion ( having a larger than standard exhaust valve) . It is a strange buisness plan isn't it? With the ultimate result of course being that not many people actually really care who wins a Speedway title in Britain, as a) the sports following is very small, and b) given the often contrived way the comps are ran there is very little kudos in 'winning'.. Yet promoters, in their own bubble, seem to take things very seriously and expect riders to have the best kit available to help their teams win the leagues... Kit that costs many thousands of pounds... Which means many more thousands of pounds need to be paid to the riders to pay for the kit and then maintain it... Kit they all buy from pretty much the same place, and then buy upgraded parts from pretty much the same places, and get their bikes tuned often using the same tuners.. Meaning very little advantage for anyone as they are mostly doing exactly the same thing.. Hundreds of thousands of pounds each paid out by riders and promoters.. With all effectively running to stand still... All to win something hardly anyone gets excited about, and hardly anyone outside the sport will even notice.. A true race to the bottom isn't it? 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAST GATER Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) We used to run three engines and replace one every year and sell the oldest one off ,the real problem started when our main sponsored rider insisted we buy weslakes and abandon two all but new 4 valve Jawas( 3k worth in late 70's) and a Street conversion . It was the beginning of the end for us ,you put up with changing handle bars .mudguards,seats ,carbs, wheels ,twist grips,and 6 stud instead from 4 stud clutches ,don't forget in those days you could use as many tyres as you liked (2 every meeting sometimes ) it just went mental !. The rider in question did not improve his average did not win more races and ironicly I don't think he ever broke many if any track records again which was his forte ,as I said plain and utter insanity led by I must have attitude . Edited March 31, 2020 by FAST GATER 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 12 hours ago, mikebv said: Could the Premiership clubs get 2000 or so on their best night? Paying circa £18 to watch 12 riders Premiership Heat Leader/Second string level or Championship heat leader standard? If so they would make a fair few quid. . No, I don't think they would. That's a play-off finals size crowd, but without any prestige or club loyalty in the mix. I honestly don't think tinkering with the format or race nights will make a material difference. The problem is promotion or lack thereof. I can walk around Swindon and not see a single indication of the speedway season about to start, even though Swindon's first meeting was theoretically last week. I can walk around Swindon's largest employers and not see a single sign that a speedway team exists in the town. People aren't going to magically appear about of thin air at the gates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 56 minutes ago, waytogo28 said: Thinking of King's Lynn - I believe that they could pull 2.000 on a Saturday night with the right kind of team format and visiting team variety to make the proposed scheme viable. Providing that the quality of racing on track makes it a VFM night out for the supporters. Riders have a major part to play in making the racing worth watching and rebuilding the sport in 2021. 2000 punters at 18 quid in would gross £36,000. Take out the vat and your still looking at the thick edge of nearly 29 grand.. And that doesnt include car park and bar take for those who own the premises, nor programme sales.. Once a week, using 12 lads of Championship Heat Leader and above standard with a minimum £1000 to ride and around £2500 to the winner of the meeting surely must be a possibility? As an example... Wolves Monday, Poole Wednesday, Swindon Thursday, Belle Vue Friday, Kings Lynn Saturday. Peterborough Sunday.. Tuesday can be left for Sweden and the riders to be used at weekend wont be needed in Poland.. Plenty of racing for the riders as there are obviously many more tracks to do the same, for all levels of riders.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, MattK said: No, I don't think they would. That's a play-off finals size crowd, but without any prestige or club loyalty in the mix. I honestly don't think tinkering with the format or race nights will make a material difference. The problem is promotion or lack thereof. I can walk around Swindon and not see a single indication of the speedway season about to start, even though Swindon's first meeting was theoretically last week. I can walk around Swindon's largest employers and not see a single sign that a speedway team exists in the town. People aren't going to magically appear about of thin air at the gates. It is very much down to marketing though isnt it? Speedway needs to think much bigger when it comes to selling itself. If an individual event had a decent prize fund then I am sure interest would be stirred in the casual follower. Maybe clubs could do a few 'indys' if the leagues cannot get finished and use sponsors cash to put on a 'biggie or two' which would remind the casual fans the place still exists and give the club a chance to see if certain race nights (with something tangible to ride for) do increase their revenue.. Almost a free hit for them if no team racing to try something different I would think.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 11 minutes ago, mikebv said: It is very much down to marketing though isnt it? Speedway needs to think much bigger when it comes to selling itself. If an individual event had a decent prize fund then I am sure interest would be stirred in the casual follower. Maybe clubs could do a few 'indys' if the leagues cannot get finished and use sponsors cash to put on a 'biggie or two' which would remind the casual fans the place still exists and give the club a chance to see if certain race nights (with something tangible to ride for) do increase their revenue.. Almost a free hit for them if no team racing to try something different I would think.. It is very much down to marketing, but I don't think marketing a series of individual meetings is any easier than marketing a team-base league. In fact, I think trying to market the Swindon Robins to people who primarily live in Swindon is a much easier sell than a individual meeting full of riders nobody has heard of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, MattK said: It is very much down to marketing, but I don't think marketing a series of individual meetings is any easier than marketing a team-base league. In fact, I think trying to market the Swindon Robins to people who primarily live in Swindon is a much easier sell than a individual meeting full of riders nobody has heard of. I attended a three hour indoor supercross event at the Manchester Arena a couple of years ago that got a 7000 full house at £45 for me and £15 for my then 14 year old lad.. Didn't have a clue who any of the riders were, (and still dont).. Lots of local marketing, using billboards, flyers given out in the very busy city centre by 'quite attractive' young ladies, riders doing wheelies in the city centre in front of the local TV cameras and newspapers, and a three minute interview on the local news programme explaining what was on offer.. Paid £60, plus won a T shirt fired from an air gun into the crowd, my lad got a free poster signed by 'whoever', I spent a bomb on Coke and Hot Dogs, plus I spent £5 on texting my name to a number to try (unsuccessfully) to win a kids MX bike suspended from the ceiling. Me and about 3500 other Dad's looking at the amount of mobile phones that were taken out when the competition was announced. (The bike was worth around £1500 so they made a hell of pile of cash on this competiton).. Loads of merchandise stalls for the riders to sell their own gear and an autograph/selfie area where riders signed free posters of themselves... Loads of interviews of riders between racers to get an insight into their personality, with the local lads being the prime interviewees to illicit some local partisanship from us fans who didn't know them from Adam. Meaning we watched out for them more closely.. Three hours of noise, music, lights, colour, racing and a mike man who kept the whole thing moving at a break neck pace which befits a high octane, adreneline fuelled sport, and your attention never wavered... Do all that for a Saturday night at a Speedway meeting and you may just have a success on your hands... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, mikebv said: Do all that for a Saturday night at a Speedway meeting and you may just have a success on your hands... I agree that the presentation of your average speedway meeting is something out of the 1970s. However, would you go and see supercross every week? That's the fundamental problem club promoters face. Putting on a one-off meeting and charging £45+ a ticket is perfectly possible - the GP does it every year. I don't see how that translates into 20 meetings per season though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 18 minutes ago, MattK said: I agree that the presentation of your average speedway meeting is something out of the 1970s. However, would you go and see supercross every week? That's the fundamental problem club promoters face. Putting on a one-off meeting and charging £45+ a ticket is perfectly possible - the GP does it every year. I don't see how that translates into 20 meetings per season though. Maybe less really is more? Putting in loads of second and third rate contrived team speedway undersells the sport's overall potential massively, so put on less meetings but 'bigger events'? Anything put out that's sub standard is pretty much 'brand damaging' yet it sometimes appears that "any Speedway is better than no Speedway" is the mantra followed.. Hence we applaud (quite rightly) people like Lee Kilby and Barry Bishop, who take a pro active approach to 'a night at the Speedway' and understand that it's the attention to detail that makes the overall entertainment package, not just the racing. . Maybe some good will come out of a reduced season by clubs trying something different to see if it works.. The 'same old, same old' certainly wasn't working looking at the evidence of the past 25 years or so, so why carry on with doing the same thing? It's possibly a real opportunity to reinvent itself and start again. . Fresh ideas, fresh start. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, mikebv said: Maybe less really is more? Putting in loads of second and third rate contrived team speedway undersells the sport's overall potential massively, so put on less meetings but 'bigger events'? Anything put out that's sub standard is pretty much 'brand damaging' yet it sometimes appears that "any Speedway is better than no Speedway" is the mantra followed.. Hence we applaud (quite rightly) people like Lee Kilby and Barry Bishop, who take a pro active approach to 'a night at the Speedway' and understand that it's the attention to detail that makes the overall entertainment package, not just the racing. . Maybe some good will come out of a reduced season by clubs trying something different to see if it works.. The 'same old, same old' certainly wasn't working looking at the evidence of the past 25 years or so, so why carry on with doing the same thing? It's possibly a real opportunity to reinvent itself and start again. . Fresh ideas, fresh start. . Less almost certainly is more. However would stadium landlords accept a reduced speedway calendar? There comes a point where speedway simply isn't cost effective and alternative revenues (or redevelopment) will to be sort. Coupled with the fact that there are fixed costs of riding. As I said, this all sounds like a race to the bottom which eventually leads to speedway being amateurs racing round in a field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 2 hours ago, MattK said: People aren't going to magically appear about of thin air at the gates. That has certainly been the case for all of this century, which is about when the clubs began not to push things as well as they could locally. Under Buster they turned to relying on social media which is not going to work, unless you can get Justin Bieber to go regularly and tell his 100,000,000 plus followers about the joys of speedway racing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) 39 minutes ago, MattK said: Less almost certainly is more. However would stadium landlords accept a reduced speedway calendar? There comes a point where speedway simply isn't cost effective and alternative revenues (or redevelopment) will to be sort. Coupled with the fact that there are fixed costs of riding. As I said, this all sounds like a race to the bottom which eventually leads to speedway being amateurs racing round in a field. I think - unfortunately - that the race to the bottom is already well into the last lap for speedway. Carrying on as normal is not an option if the sport wants long-term survival. I think both you and Mike have some valid points. I agree with you that team-based speedway works better than individually, which is pretty much born out across the rest of Europe. But I also think Mike is bang on when he uses the Supercross event as a model that can "cut through" with the average punter. I've advocated this before, but I think a model that is worth experimenting with is a multi-sport model that would consist of a Saturday/Sunday 4-5 hour event including speedway, sidecars, quads, flat track, stock cars, greyhounds....whatever a venue can handle. Once a month, drawing in families and supporters from all disciplines, providing them with a real value for money experience. With a larger crowd, there is also greater appeal for fair rides, face painters, climbing walls, caterers, inflatables and other operators to attend and add to the atmosphere/experience. I get that not all the sports on offer appeal to all...so pick and choose! I used to go the Ace of Aces grasstrack every year in the late 80s, early 90s and i was never a big fan of the "chairs", so instead I went on the fair, had a burger, got my pic taken with a page 3 girl (I was a teenager, it was the 80s, happy days! ). I think the sport has to collaborate with other similarly struggling sports to offer a richer, fuller experience to draw in more fans. Who, let's be honest, will be counting their pennies and considering their spend even more than ever when this all ends. Ask yourself if a family of four are more likely to attend a Thursday night at Foxhall for £36 or a full Sunday afternoon for £50? Edited March 31, 2020 by falcace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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