Will British Speedway Survive ?

[iris123]

3 minutes ago, Ben91 said:

I’m sure it wouldn’t take long to work that out if you want to do it. It would significantly water down the product as I said but teams could still be filled if the only option was to use British riders exclusively. 

I wanted you to tell me, seeing as you seemed to know. You saying that you don’t know or don’t want to tell me ?

[greyhoundp]

Well there are 19 senior Teams which means 133 British riders would be needed, I for one dont think there are enough British riders to go round, just to make up a team of seven British riders would most likely mean having some riders trail round a half lap or more that would not bring in spectators. I realise the sport would need to make decisions just to get teams on track, but very much doubt that would be a way forward.

[greyhoundp]

Just had a very very quick check of British riders with Premier/Championship teams and i made it 44 riders, so even if there are 50 riders  its nowhere near enough to have British rider only teams even if all of them rode for two teams.. which just shows what a poor state the sport is in in this country..

Edited March 28, 2020 by greyhoundp

[iris123]

3 minutes ago, greyhoundp said:

Just had a very very quick check of British riders with Premier/Championship teams and i made it 44 riders, so even if there are 50 riders  its nowhere near enough to have British rider only teams even if all of them rode for two teams.. which just shows what a poor state the sport is in in this country..

Shurely shome mistake !!! 
 

But we have had over a decade of diluting the product and where has that got us ? As you say, what the sport doesn’t need is more of the same.....

[Sidney the robin]

15 hours ago, Falcon1983 said:

I think it's time british speedway in a sense looked after it's own clubs, it's own riders and it's own fans.  No restrictions on when you can run your speedway night, a less is more club offering on the league front with more focus on the individual element for British Riders and Championship.

There is no better time than now really to act once this is all over, it's likely a few teams will be lost but with limited riders to go around and the necessity really to run more on the days thay benefit your business in terms of crowd size etc. Then less clubs isn't a bad thing until more young british or commonwealth riders are coming through the system 

I think this post is spot on if this had be implemented i am sure Rye House would still be around.

[MattK]

17 hours ago, Falcon1983 said:

I think it's time british speedway in a sense looked after it's own clubs, it's own riders and it's own fans.  No restrictions on when you can run your speedway night, a less is more club offering on the league front with more focus on the individual element for British Riders and Championship.

There is no better time than now really to act once this is all over, it's likely a few teams will be lost but with limited riders to go around and the necessity really to run more on the days thay benefit your business in terms of crowd size etc. Then less clubs isn't a bad thing until more young british or commonwealth riders are coming through the system 

Do you agree that over the last decade there has been a gradual reduction in quality across British speedway and in turn a gradual decline in crowds?

If so, what makes you think that a significant reduction in quality won't have an even more detrimental impact on crowd numbers?

[iris123]

I guess people just think there are enough riders, when there aren’t. They also think there are enough fans with enough money , who want to watch any standard, when there aren’t... reality doesn’t play a part of it

[Ben91]

12 hours ago, iris123 said:

I wanted you to tell me, seeing as you seemed to know. You saying that you don’t know or don’t want to tell me ?

Perhaps if you asked nicely rather than making demands of a stranger on the internet you'd have got a more polite, helpful, response.  

12 hours ago, greyhoundp said:

Well there are 19 senior Teams which means 133 British riders would be needed, I for one dont think there are enough British riders to go round, just to make up a team of seven British riders would most likely mean having some riders trail round a half lap or more that would not bring in spectators. I realise the sport would need to make decisions just to get teams on track, but very much doubt that would be a way forward.

There are 26 teams in Britain for 2020 (19 senior, 7 NL/amateur, whatever you like to tag it as). That is 182 team spots and 182 riders needed. 

A little bit of digging in places where the information is easy to find (BSPA website) shows that there are 77 British riders assigned to team spots across the leagues. There are also currently three team spots yet to be filled in the National League - these riders have to be British. Newcastle also have a National Trophy team adding a further six British riders who are unattached to another club. This gives us 83 British riders that are spoken for for 2020 already. 

Next, we look at last season's green sheet averages to see the Brits who rode but aren't currently attached to a team for the 2020 season. There are another 20. We're up to 103 British riders who have been active in league speedway here within the last year or are due to ride this season.

Lastly, riders who competed in second half league racing last term. This information is readily available on this forum - and adds a further 53 British speedway riders. Our running total is 156 British riders who have thrown their leg over a bike in the last year. At this point I also need to factor in a British rider who didn't race here last season, Tai Woffinden. This leaves a total of 157 British Speedway riders.

As an added bit of context here, I have omitted Shelby Rutherford and Connor Bailey here as despite riding NL last season they are from New Zealand and Australia respectively. Rory Schlein is included as he races as a British rider now. 

Of course, of that 157 there will be some who have retired, but there will also be others who have picked up Speedway in the off season, or turned 15 and are now eligible for National League competition. There will also be those who competed in other forms of second half racing or amateur meetings so in reality the figure will be higher than 157 but let's use that as the working number. Now we need to fill the team spots. 

As it stands, due to doubling up (19 riders are due to pull double duty between Premiership and Championship, 11 between Championship and National League) the 182 team spots across the three divisions are filled by 142 riders. 142 is less than 157. There are enough British riders to go around, albeit at a much watered down standard (as I already pointed out it would be). 

It is worth noting that I am in favour of riders from all nations racing here, I'm merely proving my point that there are enough British riders to go around under the current doubling up rules if, hypothetically, the league had to be run with Brits only. I acknowledge that the standard of riders would be a lot lower of course. My personal hope is that doubling up will eventually be scrapped, one of the common stock responses when that is mentioned here is "there aren't enough riders." And that response is in terms of Speedway riders from any nation, not just British ones. There are enough riders.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Ben91

[greyhoundp]

Very informative Ben91 thanks for taking the time to check those figures out, I stand by what i said that no more than 50 senior riders from the Premiership/Championship would be the highest count of British riders, give or take one or two, how can that be enough for 19 teams ?.

[iris123]

25 minutes ago, greyhoundp said:

Very informative Ben91 thanks for taking the time to check those figures out, I stand by what i said that no more than 50 senior riders from the Premiership/Championship would be the highest count of British riders, give or take one or two, how can that be enough for 19 teams ?.

It can’t. No account has been taken for riders who have retired or second halfers who aren’t willing or interested in traveling the length and breadth of the country to trail in way behind in every heat. And as you stated before nobody in any numbers is really interested in watching such meetigs. I have seen enough of that to last me a lifetime. Ok for a pittance. But I am not traveling miles and paying good money for that any more

Edited March 29, 2020 by iris123

[MattK]

28 minutes ago, greyhoundp said:

Very informative Ben91 thanks for taking the time to check those figures out, I stand by what i said that no more than 50 senior riders from the Premiership/Championship would be the highest count of British riders, give or take one or two, how can that be enough for 19 teams ?.

The league would have to be pitched midway between the current Championship and NL level in order to be competitive.

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, Ben91 said:

Perhaps if you asked nicely rather than making demands of a stranger on the internet you'd have got a more polite, helpful, response.  

There are 26 teams in Britain for 2020 (19 senior, 7 NL/amateur, whatever you like to tag it as). That is 182 team spots and 182 riders needed. 

A little bit of digging in places where the information is easy to find (BSPA website) shows that there are 77 British riders assigned to team spots across the leagues. There are also currently three team spots yet to be filled in the National League - these riders have to be British. Newcastle also have a National Trophy team adding a further six British riders who are unattached to another club. This gives us 83 British riders that are spoken for for 2020 already. 

Next, we look at last season's green sheet averages to see the Brits who rode but aren't currently attached to a team for the 2020 season. There are another 20. We're up to 103 British riders who have been active in league speedway here within the last year or are due to ride this season.

Lastly, riders who competed in second half league racing last term. This information is readily available on this forum - and adds a further 53 British speedway riders. Our running total is 156 British riders who have thrown their leg over a bike in the last year. At this point I also need to factor in a British rider who didn't race here last season, Tai Woffinden. This leaves a total of 157 British Speedway riders.

As an added bit of context here, I have omitted Shelby Rutherford and Connor Bailey here as despite riding NL last season they are from New Zealand and Australia respectively. Rory Schlein is included as he races as a British rider now. 

Of course, of that 157 there will be some who have retired, but there will also be others who have picked up Speedway in the off season, or turned 15 and are now eligible for National League competition. There will also be those who competed in other forms of second half racing or amateur meetings so in reality the figure will be higher than 157 but let's use that as the working number. Now we need to fill the team spots. 

As it stands, due to doubling up (19 riders are due to pull double duty between Premiership and Championship, 11 between Championship and National League) the 182 team spots across the three divisions are filled by 142 riders. 142 is less than 157. There are enough British riders to go around, albeit at a much watered down standard (as I already pointed out it would be). 

It is worth noting that I am in favour of riders from all nations racing here, I'm merely proving my point that there are enough British riders to go around under the current doubling up rules if, hypothetically, the league had to be run with Brits only. I acknowledge that the standard of riders would be a lot lower of course. My personal hope is that doubling up will eventually be scrapped, one of the common stock responses when that is mentioned here is "there aren't enough riders." And that response is in terms of Speedway riders from any nation, not just British ones. There are enough riders.

Great post thanks for making the effort Ben, i for one would be willing to see a lower level of competition if i had to.Speedway is four riders in a race that are of all levels you don't need four champion's in a race to entertain us i have seen that at NL level.Are people who could not stomach a real drop in quality die hard supporters?? i think not some people think speedway is an expensive night out yet people are willing to pay 20 pound for a pizza.

[Falcon1983]

People say the product has been diluted over the years but if you take say the last 10-15 years I've probably seen the same number of heats per season that I thought "wow what a race" diluting of product isn't necessarily the quality of riders on show, as the odd GP has shown in the past, on a poor track the racing is just as dire as any other meeting.

Speedway has ploughed along more or less the same as it was at the start, all I have seen over the years are either slight tweaks to the same format or just rebranding names of leagues I.e. covering dog poo in a quality street wrapper.

Think the sport needs a massive overhaul in an attempt to bring new fans in, I say attempt because you can't fault someone who tries, if an effort is made then so be it if it doesnt attract new fans because either way the sport probably is on it's way out over a 5-10 year period.

I have my own thoughts on a way forward which is different to what it is now, it would mean less teams (as we'll likely lose some tracks due to this inactivity) it would also mean losing the few top end riders who ride GP and Poland etc. 

[Ben91]

1 hour ago, iris123 said:

It can’t. No account has been taken for riders who have retired or second halfers who aren’t willing or interested in traveling the length and breadth of the country to trail in way behind in every heat. And as you stated before nobody in any numbers is really interested in watching such meetigs. I have seen enough of that to last me a lifetime. Ok for a pittance. But I am not traveling miles and paying good money for that any more

I said there are enough riders to fill every spot. I then proved just that. I didn’t say it would be good, competitive or viable or that I wanted it to happen. Nobody is seriously suggesting such a watering down of the product. Not that the current product is worth travelling miles for anyway. 

[iris123]

1 minute ago, Ben91 said:

I said there are enough riders to fill every spot. I then proved just that. I didn’t say it would be good, competitive or viable or that I wanted it to happen. Nobody is seriously suggesting such a watering down of the product. Not that the current product is worth travelling miles for anyway. 

You didn’t prove it, because you don’t know who has decided to retire or who wants to ride in a national league. You just counted every Tom, dick and harry who competed locally or ride a meeting last season

[MattK]

28 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Great post thanks for making the effort Ben, i for one would be willing to see a lower level of competition if i had to.Speedway is four riders in a race that are of all levels you don't need four champion's in a race to entertain us i have seen that at NL level.Are people who could not stomach a real drop in quality die hard supporters?? i think not some people think speedway is an expensive night out yet people are willing to pay 20 pound for a pizza.

You do accept that over the years as the standard of the leagues have dropped so have attendances? Likewise, the Premiership on average gets better crowds than the Championship and the Championship on average gets better crowds than the NL? Therefore, this approach would be a race to the bottom.

As for people being die hard supporters, no, people who cannot stomach a drop in quality, pick and choose meetings etc. are not die hard supporters. However, speedway cannot exist on die hard supporters alone, as recent years have shown.

In my opinion, this idea would see speedway quickly relegated to a similar level as grasstrack. An amateur sport where die hard fans watch riders racing round in a field.

[iris123]

11 minutes ago, iris123 said:

You didn’t prove it, because you don’t know who has decided to retire or who wants to ride in a national league. You just counted every Tom, dick and harry who competed locally or ride a meeting last season

Add to that the times when some rider has been sent to a team and dropped out because the traveling or track doesn’t suit them...

[HGould]

2 hours ago, Ben91 said:

Perhaps if you asked nicely rather than making demands of a stranger on the internet you'd have got a more polite, helpful, response.  

There are 26 teams in Britain for 2020 (19 senior, 7 NL/amateur, whatever you like to tag it as). That is 182 team spots and 182 riders needed. 

A little bit of digging in places where the information is easy to find (BSPA website) shows that there are 77 British riders assigned to team spots across the leagues. There are also currently three team spots yet to be filled in the National League - these riders have to be British. Newcastle also have a National Trophy team adding a further six British riders who are unattached to another club. This gives us 83 British riders that are spoken for for 2020 already. 

Next, we look at last season's green sheet averages to see the Brits who rode but aren't currently attached to a team for the 2020 season. There are another 20. We're up to 103 British riders who have been active in league speedway here within the last year or are due to ride this season.

Lastly, riders who competed in second half league racing last term. This information is readily available on this forum - and adds a further 53 British speedway riders. Our running total is 156 British riders who have thrown their leg over a bike in the last year. At this point I also need to factor in a British rider who didn't race here last season, Tai Woffinden. This leaves a total of 157 British Speedway riders.

As an added bit of context here, I have omitted Shelby Rutherford and Connor Bailey here as despite riding NL last season they are from New Zealand and Australia respectively. Rory Schlein is included as he races as a British rider now. 

Of course, of that 157 there will be some who have retired, but there will also be others who have picked up Speedway in the off season, or turned 15 and are now eligible for National League competition. There will also be those who competed in other forms of second half racing or amateur meetings so in reality the figure will be higher than 157 but let's use that as the working number. Now we need to fill the team spots. 

As it stands, due to doubling up (19 riders are due to pull double duty between Premiership and Championship, 11 between Championship and National League) the 182 team spots across the three divisions are filled by 142 riders. 142 is less than 157. There are enough British riders to go around, albeit at a much watered down standard (as I already pointed out it would be). 

It is worth noting that I am in favour of riders from all nations racing here, I'm merely proving my point that there are enough British riders to go around under the current doubling up rules if, hypothetically, the league had to be run with Brits only. I acknowledge that the standard of riders would be a lot lower of course. My personal hope is that doubling up will eventually be scrapped, one of the common stock responses when that is mentioned here is "there aren't enough riders." And that response is in terms of Speedway riders from any nation, not just British ones. There are enough riders.

great post Ben and well done for trying to calculate things. 

[Sidney the robin]

6 minutes ago, MattK said:

You do accept that over the years as the standard of the leagues have dropped so have attendances? Likewise, the Premiership on average gets better crowds than the Championship and the Championship on average gets better crowds than the NL? Therefore, this approach would be a race to the bottom.

As for people being die hard supporters, no, people who cannot stomach a drop in quality, pick and choose meetings etc. are not die hard supporters. However, speedway cannot exist on die hard supporters alone, as recent years have shown.

In my opinion, this idea would see speedway quickly relegated to a similar level as grasstrack. An amateur sport where die hard fans watch riders racing round in a field.

I believe Swindon have been quite lucky as there crowds for me have held up well .Last year entertainment wise was the best year's speedway i have seen there  since the GREAT Leigh Adams days.You are right though i do believe more people now pick/ choose there meeting's and the biggest disappointment last year along with Lee Kilby was the crowd for the NL fixture and youth meeting.I would love NL fixtures to be a part of Swindon speedway but i no it is just not viable such a shame.

[Ben91]

1 hour ago, iris123 said:

You didn’t prove it, because you don’t know who has decided to retire or who wants to ride in a national league. You just counted every Tom, dick and harry who competed locally or ride a meeting last season

You didn’t specify that. What’s happened here is that you challenged me in a condescending manner, I proved you wrong, which you can’t accept so you’ve now moved the goal posts.