Corona virus

[BWitcher]

1 minute ago, chris4gillian said:

Ok, so tell me FACTUALLY how the virus will be kept at bay if we all go about life as normal without a vaccine?  I'm talking cases as opposed to deaths.

As I said, the whole world has locked down therefore the whole world has got things wrong....apparently.

So, do we listen to the most prominent leaders throughout the world with the most experienced experts and advisors alive (Cummings is an exception of course :-) ) OR do we listen to a Covid obsessed forum poster?  Hmm....difficult choice that.

Then there is nothing to discuss. If cases don't lead to hospital admissions/deaths, then there is no crisis.

[chris4gillian]

12 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

It's well established that lockdown has caused deaths and continues to do so.

When the virus was rampant, the deaths from the virus obviously outweighed them... now however they do not.

Deaths in hospitals are below the five year average.

Deaths in care homes are below the five year average.

Deaths at home however are between 800-100 ABOVE average each week and have been for last couple of months. The majority of these coming from people either too frightened to go to the doctors/hospital when ill or unable to due to unavailable appointments.

It will be another thing you'll be in complete denial about no doubt.

In extreme situations such as care homes, yes I agree.  However, the number of cases and death toll would have been (and could still be) much, much higher if lockdown wasn't introduced.  That is a FACT which you will no doubt try to counter argue once again.  As I keep saying, lockdown is a world wide thing so please keep posting that the whole world has got it wrong.

[BWitcher]

2 minutes ago, chris4gillian said:

In extreme situations such as care homes, yes I agree.  However, the number of cases and death toll would have been (and could still be) much, much higher if lockdown wasn't introduced.  That is a FACT which you will no doubt try to counter argue once again.  As I keep saying, lockdown is a world wide thing so please keep posting that the whole world has got it wrong.

You seem to have trouble understanding what a 'fact' is.

That is your opinion, not a fact. A fact is something that has happened and can be proven.

Lockdown isn't a worldwide thing as you keep claiming. There have been differing levels of restrictions applied around the world, with some barely locking down at all. These 'much, much higher deaths' haven't occurred.

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by BWitcher

[chris4gillian]

2 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Then there is nothing to discuss. If cases don't lead to hospital admissions/deaths, then there is no crisis.

For the love of God...cases (and deaths) are currently so low BECAUSE of the lockdown.  If we return to life as normal the pandemic will be off and running once again.  Yes the death toll will probably be a lot lower, however isn't it best to continue with lockdown/social distancing etc. for a while yet so that Covid deaths remain extremely low?  Nobody can predict how many deaths a 'second wave' may or may not cause - and I for one feel that 1 death is 1 death too many.

[BWitcher]

Just now, chris4gillian said:

For the love of God...cases (and deaths) are currently so low BECAUSE of the lockdown.  If we return to life as normal the pandemic will be off and running once again.  Yes the death toll will probably be a lot lower, however isn't it best to continue with lockdown/social distancing etc. for a while yet so that Covid deaths remain extremely low?  Nobody can predict how many deaths a 'second wave' may or may not cause - and I for one feel that 1 death is 1 death too many.

Again, you're making things up and trying to present them as fact when they aren't.

It's already been explained to you multiple times that deaths involving flu, which spreads in EXACTLY the same way haven't been falling for the past few months. So it's clear, that lockdown, masks, distancing etc has not effected the transmission of a virus.

Sweden, which has a very different policy to our own has seen the exact same pattern occur with Covid-19 deaths. In fact their deaths have reduced significantly more than ours now.

If you 'for one' feel that 1 death is too many then you are advocating a lockdown for life.

 

[chris4gillian]

4 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

You seem to have trouble understanding what a 'fact' is.

That is your opinion, not a fact. A fact is something that has happened and can be proven.

Lockdown isn't a worldwide thing as you keep claiming. There have been differing levels of restrictions applied around the world, with some barely locking down at all. These 'much, much higher deaths' haven't occurred.

 

Yes, in the countries which have been fortunate enough to have low case numbers.  Look at the highly populated countries, it's a very different story in those!

Lockdown (on whatever level it's imposed) saves lives, that is a FACT not my opinion.  On that note my children are calling so farewell for now

[BWitcher]

5 minutes ago, chris4gillian said:

Yes, in the countries which have been fortunate enough to have low case numbers.  Look at the highly populated countries, it's a very different story in those!

Lockdown (on whatever level it's imposed) saves lives, that is a FACT not my opinion.  On that note my children are calling so farewell for now

Again, you don't understand what a 'fact' is.

Meanwhile:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8553929/Lockdowns-DONT-work-study-claims.html

So now your defence is that the countries who didn't lockdown as much didn't have as many deaths because they didn't have as many cases.. 

Remind me what the purpose of lockdown was/is again please?

Edited August 16, 2020 by BWitcher

[Shrub]

19 minutes ago, chris4gillian said:

In extreme situations such as care homes, yes I agree.  However, the number of cases and death toll would have been (and could still be) much, much higher if lockdown wasn't introduced.  That is a FACT which you will no doubt try to counter argue once again.  As I keep saying, lockdown is a world wide thing so please keep posting that the whole world has got it wrong.

Do you deny that people are dying or are going to die early because they did not get their cancer diagnosis / treatment because the hospitals effectively shut due to lockdown? We all know that early diagnosis and treatment is essential in tackling this disease. Yet because of this lockdown which you think has been so great, 2.5 million patients are now in the logjam caused by this delay. This was known at the lockdown, you don't have to be a medical expert to realise what would happen and now countless thousands will die prematurely over the next few years, dwarfing the Covid numbers. A percentage of these will be young people as well. And that's not counting other serious illnesses and conditions that also had their treatments stopped. 

The only thing missing from Johnson's lockdown speech was the black cap that he should have been wearing as he knowingly passed a sentence of death on thousands of innocent people.

And again to re-iterate Bwitcher's valid point, unless someone can credibly explain how the lockdown made the Covid numbers plummet yet did nothing to another virus transmitted in exactly the same way, then the lockdown's "success"' story is totally blown out of the water.

[TB1]

Can the next person who thinks a ' second wave' is going to hit us please send me a feckin surf board so I can ride it. I'm fed up to the back teeth of people without knowing the facts assuming we are all doomed.

[IainB]

Not for me obvs... but some people may find it helpful 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00YZKUX3A

Edited August 17, 2020 by iainb

[Lefty]

9 minutes ago, iainb said:

Not for me obvs... but some people may find it helpful 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00YZKUX3A

I thought it was a link for a surf board not a book about a Scunny speedway rider!!!

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, iainb said:

Not for me obvs... but some people may find it helpful 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00YZKUX3A

You continue to plough the depths whilst bleating about being bullied.

The fact you find it funny says it all.

[IainB]

45 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

You continue to plough the depths whilst bleating about being bullied.

The fact you find it funny says it all.

See you next Tuesday 

[IainB]

1 minute ago, Crumpet77 said:

Do you have mental health problems ? 

No, none at all... You?

Thanks for asking though

[chris4gillian]

17 hours ago, Shrub said:

Do you deny that people are dying or are going to die early because they did not get their cancer diagnosis / treatment because the hospitals effectively shut due to lockdown? We all know that early diagnosis and treatment is essential in tackling this disease. Yet because of this lockdown which you think has been so great, 2.5 million patients are now in the logjam caused by this delay. This was known at the lockdown, you don't have to be a medical expert to realise what would happen and now countless thousands will die prematurely over the next few years, dwarfing the Covid numbers. A percentage of these will be young people as well. And that's not counting other serious illnesses and conditions that also had their treatments stopped. 

The only thing missing from Johnson's lockdown speech was the black cap that he should have been wearing as he knowingly passed a sentence of death on thousands of innocent people.

And again to re-iterate Bwitcher's valid point, unless someone can credibly explain how the lockdown made the Covid numbers plummet yet did nothing to another virus transmitted in exactly the same way, then the lockdown's "success"' story is totally blown out of the water.

No hospital 'effectively' shut at any point throughout the lockdown.  Yes a lot of hospital staff were redeployed to assist with the number of Covid patients, however essential appointments and life threatening treatments continued.  It was only because folk were in fear of going to hospital (many still are) which meant that a high number of treatments didn't take place.  That was a personal choice each individual made.  The Government have continually stated throughout the pandemic that hospitals are open for all treatments unless you have been notified otherwise.  I had a hospital appointment in May which I was firstly informed would be carried over the phone instead of attending in person and then a week later it was cancelled all together.  This wasn't a concern as it wasn't for anything life threatening.  However if it was, do you think it would have been cancelled?

We have been into hospital twice in the past couple of weeks (kids, who'd have 'em?) and have felt safe on both occasions.  However I still know some that are scared to go...which is their prerogative.

As for the Covid v Flu argument, I have previously posted evidence which explains the differences and why the behave differently .  I haven't got the time or the inclination to trawl through pages and pages to find it as I'm not obsessed with Covid and I haven't got the man hours available (like some) to be on this forum countless times a day every day.

 

[chris4gillian]

18 hours ago, BWitcher said:

It's well established that lockdown has caused deaths and continues to do so.

When the virus was rampant, the deaths from the virus obviously outweighed them... now however they do not.

Deaths in hospitals are below the five year average.

Deaths in care homes are below the five year average.

Deaths at home however are between 800-100 ABOVE average each week and have been for last couple of months. The majority of these coming from people either too frightened to go to the doctors/hospital when ill or unable to due to unavailable appointments.

It will be another thing you'll be in complete denial about no doubt.

The lockdown is not the cause of this, the Covid virus is.  As for appointments, I don't know anyone who has had an appointment for a life threatening condition cancelled or has had trouble being seen by a medical professional throughout the pandemic.  I DO know folk (myself included) who have had appointments cancelled and have now all been rescheduled - but none for serious or life threatening conditions.  Nothing to deny about that whatsoever.

Of course lockdown has caused deaths, but that is largely due to the fear of the individual in many cases.  Care homes are an obvious exception to this for the well publicised reasons.

[BWitcher]

7 minutes ago, chris4gillian said:

No hospital 'effectively' shut at any point throughout the lockdown.  Yes a lot of hospital staff were redeployed to assist with the number of Covid patients, however essential appointments and life threatening treatments continued.  It was only because folk were in fear of going to hospital (many still are) which meant that a high number of treatments didn't take place.  That was a personal choice each individual made.  The Government have continually stated throughout the pandemic that hospitals are open for all treatments unless you have been notified otherwise.  I had a hospital appointment in May which I was firstly informed would be carried over the phone instead of attending in person and then a week later it was cancelled all together.  This wasn't a concern as it wasn't for anything life threatening.  However if it was, do you think it would have been cancelled?

We have been into hospital twice in the past couple of weeks (kids, who'd have 'em?) and have felt safe on both occasions.  However I still know some that are scared to go...which is their prerogative.

As for the Covid v Flu argument, I have previously posted evidence which explains the differences and why the behave differently .  I haven't got the time or the inclination to trawl through pages and pages to find it as I'm not obsessed with Covid and I haven't got the man hours available (like some) to be on this forum countless times a day every day.

 

No you haven't.

You can't provide any evidence because they are viruses that transmit in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. As confirmed by every medical body on the planet.

Nobody is talking about how they 'behave'. The discussion is about how they transmit.

Although if you want to go down that route, we're told Covid-19 is more deadly.. so you'd be on to a losing argument there as well.
 

[BWitcher]

2 minutes ago, chris4gillian said:

The lockdown is not the cause of this, the Covid virus is.  As for appointments, I don't know anyone who has had an appointment for a life threatening condition cancelled or has had trouble being seen by a medical professional throughout the pandemic.  I DO know folk (myself included) who have had appointments cancelled and have now all been rescheduled - but none for serious or life threatening conditions.  Nothing to deny about that whatsoever.

Of course lockdown has caused deaths, but that is largely due to the fear of the individual in many cases.  Care homes are an obvious exception to this for the well publicised reasons.

So Cancer is not a life threatening condition according to you.

 

[chris4gillian]

18 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Again, you don't understand what a 'fact' is.

Meanwhile:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8553929/Lockdowns-DONT-work-study-claims.html

So now your defence is that the countries who didn't lockdown as much didn't have as many deaths because they didn't have as many cases.. 

Remind me what the purpose of lockdown was/is again please?

And I could post a number of studies from other sources which contradict this...and they're not published in the daily mail!

[BWitcher]

3 minutes ago, chris4gillian said:

The lockdown is not the cause of this, the Covid virus is.  As for appointments, I don't know anyone who has had an appointment for a life threatening condition cancelled or has had trouble being seen by a medical professional throughout the pandemic.  I DO know folk (myself included) who have had appointments cancelled and have now all been rescheduled - but none for serious or life threatening conditions.  Nothing to deny about that whatsoever.

Of course lockdown has caused deaths, but that is largely due to the fear of the individual in many cases.  Care homes are an obvious exception to this for the well publicised reasons.

Wrong again, because if we didn't have the lockdown and all the restrictions people wouldn't be scared of a virus that is involved in 1/6th of the deaths of flu/pneumonia.