iris123 Posted February 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Terry said: I remember the TV footage of Carter and Sanders muttering to each other about how Muller can be so good. It was like they'd never heard of him before! Sounds a bit like Ward and Holder with Smolinski.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted February 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 Think there is a lot of truth in the bike being the major factor, rather than track. Heard Egon a few times say how he rode the thing round country lanes to get the set- up right and got stopped by the old bill once. They immediately recognized him and let him carry on. So it wasn’t as if he was just riding the track to get things perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, iris123 said: Think there is a lot of truth in the bike being the major factor, rather than track. Heard Egon a few times say how he rode the thing round country lanes to get the set- up right and got stopped by the old bill once. They immediately recognized him and let him carry on. So it wasn’t as if he was just riding the track to get things perfect I remember hearing that story. The engine was virtually the first GM and definitely put GM on the map, so a lot of 'getting it right' would have gone on! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerblade Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 5 hours ago, Terry said: I remember the TV footage of Carter and Sanders muttering to each other about how Muller can be so good. It was like they'd never heard of him before! When they both would have raced against him numerous times before.... It is a classic case of because he didn't take UK speedway seriously (probably to be far, speedway in general), the UK didn't take him seriously. People talk about Egon, and Jerzy Szczakiel being not "world class", but in my opinion, Les Collins, with every respect to the bloke, would have been a bigger "shock" World Champion had he done it in 1982. He was certainly an excellent rider at his peak, but not one of the very top averaging riders of that era. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oleoleole Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 4 hours ago, Ray Stadia said: I also remember Dave Lanning interviewing Bruce Penhall and Bruce said he had crossed the boarder (German I presume) in the boot of a car! Peter Adams told us the tale when he was a guest at an NSSC meeting. Peter was driving Bruce and the World Championship trophy to Germany. When they arrived at the ferry Bruce realised he hadn’t got his passport. With no time to return to the Midlands to collect it, and the need to get the trophy to the final, they decided to hide Bruce in the boot and managed to get him through all the checks to Germany. As you can imagine that is a very short version of Peter’s long and very funny story. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 11 hours ago, Grachan said: I was also at the 1976 final and Muller was pretty sensational in that one, too, coming close to getting 11 points. 1977 was a similar story, and he proved that he was far from being there to make up the numbers. Had he actually taken speedway seriously before Norden, he could easily have won more titles, or at least picked up a couple of medals. Like you said, it wasn't like it was a surprise to see him win... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tigerblade said: When they both would have raced against him numerous times before.... It is a classic case of because he didn't take UK speedway seriously (probably to be far, speedway in general), the UK didn't take him seriously. People talk about Egon, and Jerzy Szczakiel being not "world class", but in my opinion, Les Collins, with every respect to the bloke, would have been a bigger "shock" World Champion had he done it in 1982. He was certainly an excellent rider at his peak, but not one of the very top averaging riders of that era. I seem to remember that Egon scored 11 from 4 starts at Birmingham (not one of the bigger tracks it has to be said) in 1976 during his short spell riding for Hull. Proved that he could do it but I guess riding full time in the UK just didn't appeal as the big money was to be had riding on the continent. Minor point but Hull utilised the R/R/R for him in 1977 despite him not turning out for them. Edited February 18, 2020 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 Seems like half the forum was there. Me too! Also on a coach from Amsterdam. I seem to recall an organised trip to a cheese maker too! I don't question Muller's standing as a world class rider. He was for many years. But it was more the way he won it. Thought it then and it still plays out now on the video, he is absolutely miles faster than anyone else on the day. The rest look like they are on 350ccs in comparison. Muller was good and probably a few years past his peak in 83. In normal circumstances, he would have still been a handful for everyone on home turf, as he was at the 81 WTC at Olching. But there's no way he was that much better than the world's best without there being a serious mechanical advantage at play. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 Me too, it shows what a load of old fogies we are. I really enjoyed the 1987 two day final. You can't beat a long weekend in Amsterdam! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 Only one of us commentated on it ;-) The point about Muller's engine is probably very close to the mark. Either way, maybe it was the surroundings but the whole event just didn't feel 'right'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 12 minutes ago, RobMcCaffery said: Only one of us commentated on it ;-) The point about Muller's engine is probably very close to the mark. Either way, maybe it was the surroundings but the whole event just didn't feel 'right'. I've got a DVD of the meeting with you as commentator Rob! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) Forget exactly how many matches Egon rode for Hull 1976 but know he averaged 8.75 so none too shabby, he was a more than decent speedway rider but think he was strongly 'encouraged' to ride speedway in order for his permission to ride to ride longtrack be processed quicker & more hassle free, long / sand / grass track being his first love. I have the official VHS video of 1983 Final with Barry Briggs translating Egon's German commentary, recall the start marshall, who got skittled by an Engine Failed rider (Hans Nielsen) - how often did that happen in a World Final, was at school with Egon. As well as 'road developing' his bike, he took just the one machine - how's that for confidence, Egon later admitted to practising all he wanted on the Norden track prior to the final. He also appeared to 'advise' on track watering / grading during the actual meeting. It's true Hull ran R/R for Egon in 1977, Ian Thomas said Hull fans would be required to pay adult entrance (75p ?) + £2.50 each to meet Egon's demands, so maybe today's entrance + £30 ? Also, anyone who saw Egon ride will recall Egon's super-wide, 'cow horn'-style handlbars. He wasn't a cheap rider but when the mood struck he was dynamite, had speedway been his main thing reckon he would have been unstoppable.... Edited February 19, 2020 by martinmauger spelling, more realistic rating 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 4 hours ago, cityrebel said: Me too, it shows what a load of old fogies we are. I really enjoyed the 1987 two day final. You can't beat a long weekend in Amsterdam! Yeah, I was in Norden and Amsterdam too! For Norden, we were based in Groningen before heading back to Amsterdam for the "Revenge" World Final. In '87, we drove over for a five-day trip, and stayed with friends in Apeldoorn. I loved the country so much, I moved there in 1990 for about 18 months! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, martinmauger said: Forget exactly how many matches Egon rode for Hull 1976 but know he averaged 8.75 so none too shabby, he was a more than decent speedway rider but think he was strongly 'encouraged' to ride speedway in order for his permission to ride to ride longtrack be processed quicker & more hassle free, long / sand / grass track being his first love. I have the official VHS video of 1983 Final with Barry Briggs translating Egon's German commentary, recall the start marshall, who got skittled by an Engine Failed rider (Hans Nielsen) - how often did that happen in a World Final, was at school with Egon. As well as 'road developing' his bike, he took just the one machine - how's that for confidence, Egon later admitted to practising all he wanted on the Norden track prior to the final. He also appeared to 'advise' on track watering / grading during the actual meeting. It's true Hull ran R/R for Egon in 1977, Ian Thomas said Hull fans would be required to pay adult entrance (75p ?) + £2.50 each to meet Egon's demands, so maybe today's entrance + £30 ? Also, anyone who saw Egon ride will recall Egon's super-wide, 'cow horn'-style handlbars. He wasn't a cheap rider but when the mood struck he was dynamite, had speedway been his main thing reckon he would have been unstoppable.... As you say, Speedway was well down his priority list but he would definitely have been around the top 10 riders in the World so becoming World Champ in a 'one off' final shouldn't have been a massive surprise.. Probably the fact he didn't ride over here that much meant his name and capability didn't resonate with too many over here.. Which at the time was the 'only place to be' in the eyes of so many.. I saw him ride in a World Best Pairs at Hyde Rd, (where him and Hans Wasserman finished 3rd) and got a pair of 'cow horns' for my Raleigh not long after.. Edited February 19, 2020 by mikebv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 17 hours ago, oleoleole said: Peter Adams told us the tale when he was a guest at an NSSC meeting. Peter was driving Bruce and the World Championship trophy to Germany. When they arrived at the ferry Bruce realised he hadn’t got his passport. With no time to return to the Midlands to collect it, and the need to get the trophy to the final, they decided to hide Bruce in the boot and managed to get him through all the checks to Germany. As you can imagine that is a very short version of Peter’s long and very funny story. And Bruce's response to Dave, in typical American style, was, 'Yeah, I felt like a rookie traveller!'. The sport really misses those boys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerblade Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 I was also at both Norden and Amsterdam. It's all very well harping on about track time etc, I refer you all to the 1983 Overseas Final at Belle Vue - 3 Aces riders in it, and the one with the least experience of Hyde Road (Larry Ross) was the only one to qualify easily for the Inter Continental Final, Chris Morton did but had a struggle IIRC and Peter Collins was nowhere near. Nobody is telling me that Egon had more experience of Norden than PC did Hyde Road. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 19 hours ago, Ray Stadia said: The engine was virtually the first GM and definitely put GM on the map, so a lot of 'getting it right' would have gone on! 18 hours ago, Tigerblade said: When they both would have raced against him numerous times before.... It is a classic case of because he didn't take UK speedway seriously (probably to be far, speedway in general), the UK didn't take him seriously. People talk about Egon, and Jerzy Szczakiel being not "world class", but in my opinion, Les Collins, with every respect to the bloke, would have been a bigger "shock" World Champion had he done it in 1982. He was certainly an excellent rider at his peak, but not one of the very top averaging riders of that era. Didn't Les Collins ride a GM to 2nd Place in 1982 LA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, iainb said: Didn't Les Collins ride a GM to 2nd Place in 1982 LA? Maybe? I thought Les was a Jawa man, but probably wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Tigerblade said: I was also at both Norden and Amsterdam. It's all very well harping on about track time etc, I refer you all to the 1983 Overseas Final at Belle Vue - 3 Aces riders in it, and the one with the least experience of Hyde Road (Larry Ross) was the only one to qualify easily for the Inter Continental Final, Chris Morton did but had a struggle IIRC and Peter Collins was nowhere near. Nobody is telling me that Egon had more experience of Norden than PC did Hyde Road. Hmmm. I think you are comparing apples and pears there.... You are omitting to mention that the Hyde Road Track for the 83 Overseas was an absolute quagmire. Had it not been a World Championship meeting, I doubt very much that it would have gone ahead. It doesn't have the same infamy as the 1984 British Final - it wasn't covered on ITV - but the track was very dodgy to say the least. That's why Mort struggled and so too did other track specialists PC and Shawn Moran. Billy Sanders went out in his last race to win the event, but ended up coming off on his own with his ass in the sludge by the fence. And as much as I liked Phil Collins, he would not have beaten such a classy field in normal circumstances. He was a freak winner in freak conditions. ps. I was there too...Norden, Amsterdam, Belle Vue Edited February 19, 2020 by falcace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 15 hours ago, steve roberts said: I've got a DVD of the meeting with you as commentator Rob! Thank goodness for the mute button, eh? My goodness, I haven't even got a copy! That was a rather, ahem, 'unofficial' job, shot from the terraces. After the event the KM Video proprietor had the cheek to get us into the hospitality tent and chat to Barry Briggs while a very camera-shaped object was hidden in a holdall under a jacket....... I went 'straight' later, honest! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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