Britain's Greatest Motorcyclist?

[steve roberts]

By that I mean the three main discipines - Speedway, Grasstrack and Longtrack (although one could throw in Motorcross - or scrambling as it was once called)

Top of my list would be Simon Wigg (who won World Championships and National titles at all levels) although Kelvin Tatum would run him close. Add the likes of Jeremy Doncaster, Peter Collins and Malcolm Simmons (although I don't think that Malc took part in the Longtrack scene?), Michael Lee (who I'm not sure if he was really into Grasstrack?) and Mark Loram. When one adds scrambling there's the likes of John Louis, Tom Leadbitter and who could forget Arthur Browning?

There's a host of others that rode in all or some of those disciplines....too many to list. Sadly the Grasstrack scene appears to be a thing of the past but it produced so many talented riders who moved over to speedway.

[Guest]

Interesting thread but really just SMALL OVAL TRACK racing. To adhere to the actual title of Britain's Greatest Motorcyclist? it opens up mention of many great riders. However, interesting theme.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Guest

[steve roberts]

9 minutes ago, gustix said:

Interesting thread but really just SMALL OVAL TRACK racing. To adhere to the actual title of Britain's Greatest Motorcyclist? it opens up mention of many great riders. However, interesting theme.

I tried to narrow it down, John, to disciplines that most speedway followers would be best familiar with. Of course there are many other motorcycle disciplines and Barry Sheene was a champion at circuit racing (he had a go at speedway I recall) but I attempted to link it with our own particulat sport and off-shoots.

...and, of course, I was forgetting Don Godden.

Edited February 9, 2020 by steve roberts

[25yearfan]

Oval track racing - Simon Wigg, top speedway. longtrack and grasstrack rider over a 23 year career must be the obvious one!

[chunky]

6 hours ago, gustix said:

Interesting thread but really just SMALL OVAL TRACK racing. To adhere to the actual title of Britain's Greatest Motorcyclist? it opens up mention of many great riders. However, interesting theme.

Thing to remember, John, is that speedway is probably the most difficult of all motorcycle sports to take to. Remember when we had the televised competition in the 70's between the best performers in various motorcycle sports? Not one racer from outside small oval racing got close to anything past mediocrity on speedway.

There is a lot to be said for that...

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, chunky said:

Thing to remember, John, is that speedway is probably the most difficult of all motorcycle sports to take to. Remember when we had the televised competition in the 70's between the best performers in various motorcycle sports? Not one racer from outside small oval racing got close to anything past mediocrity on speedway.

There is a lot to be said for that...

I agree with you but would add a small comment.I believe the then pre-war Belle Vue riders Bill Kitchen and (possibly) Bob Harrison were reasonably competent road racers and actually took part in early 1930s Isle of Man TT races. I also have an inkling that Jack Parker may have been a road racer with BSA in the late 1920s. 

[chunky]

Just now, gustix said:

I agree with you but would add a small comment.I believe the then pre-war Belle Vue riders Bill Kitchen and (possibly) Bob Harrison were reasonably competent road racers and actually took part in early 1930s Isle of Man TT races. I also have an inkling that Jack Parker may have been a road racer with BSA in the late 1920s. 

That is my point, John! Speedway riders can switch to other forms of motorcycle sport with little or no difficulty, but it doesn't happen in reverse. Therefore, those who master small oval racing tend to be much better all-round motorcyclists.

[iris123]

16 minutes ago, gustix said:

I agree with you but would add a small comment.I believe the then pre-war Belle Vue riders Bill Kitchen and (possibly) Bob Harrison were reasonably competent road racers and actually took part in early 1930s Isle of Man TT races. I also have an inkling that Jack Parker may have been a road racer with BSA in the late 1920s. 

And of course Gus Kuhn competed in Isle of Man TT's and even I think a Belgian GP at road racing, plus trials and path racing etc with some success before speedway took over his interest

In a way, you are excluding a whole host of speedway riders from this because they never had the chance to compete in Longtrack or even much grass track on the Continent. Certainly not at FIM level as it just didn't exist until the 60s I think.

Edited February 9, 2020 by iris123

[E I Addio]

12 minutes ago, chunky said:

That is my point, John! Speedway riders can switch to other forms of motorcycle sport with little or no difficulty, but it doesn't happen in reverse. Therefore, those who master small oval racing tend to be much better all-round motorcyclists.

I don’t agree. Speedway takes a bit of time to the idea of controlling the whole thing with the throttle but according to Chris Louis , once he learnt to control the bike he found it quite easy.

I don’t think you can limit it to just Speedway and grasstrack. Speedway in particular is not really regarded as part of motor cycling by the main motor cycling fraternity. In fact there are plenty of speedway riders that have never even  ridden any other sort of bike, not even a road bike. The point is that if anyone is successful in any other discipline there is little financial incentive to turn to speedway.

Greatest British all rounder ? Alf Hagon must be in the frame. Ridden in all disciplines, usually on bikes he built himself , decent speedway second string , British Grasstrack Champion and World Speed Record Holder at something like 209 mph on a bike he built himself.

 

[iris123]

Was also Don Godden and not forgetting Kelvin's dad, Martin who won the Teterow Bergring and finished 2nd in the Golden Helmet at Pardubice. But as I said earlier, the whole definition of the thread basically limits things to a short period of 1960s(late) to the 1990s(early)

Edited February 9, 2020 by iris123

[wealdstone]

There was a TV programme  some years ago that pitted stars from all forms of motor cycling against each other to find best all rounder. If I recall Grass track riders came out top with Road Racers not very impressive overall

[chunky]

4 hours ago, E I Addio said:

I don’t agree. Speedway takes a bit of time to the idea of controlling the whole thing with the throttle but according to Chris Louis , once he learnt to control the bike he found it quite easy.

Because he was raised on it. My point is that other motorcycle racers are generally all at sea when trying speedway - as was shown on the show I am talking about (Superbike Six, I think it was called). However, speedway riders were able to adapt to the other disciplines a lot easier.

4 hours ago, E I Addio said:

I don’t think you can limit it to just Speedway and grasstrack. Speedway in particular is not really regarded as part of motor cycling by the main motor cycling fraternity. In fact there are plenty of speedway riders that have never even  ridden any other sort of bike, not even a road bike.

I agree that the speedway is largely unrecognised by the motorcycle world, but the fact that many speedway riders haven't ridden other bikes is irrelevant. My point is that if you can ride a speedway bike, then you can ride a road racer or motocross bike with little difficulty. That doesn't appear to be the case in reverse.

4 hours ago, E I Addio said:

Greatest British all rounder ? Alf Hagon must be in the frame. Ridden in all disciplines, usually on bikes he built himself , decent speedway second string , British Grasstrack Champion and World Speed Record Holder at something like 209 mph on a bike he built himself.

Can't argue with that at all. I was waiting for him to be mentioned!

Edited February 9, 2020 by chunky

[chunky]

3 minutes ago, wealdstone said:

There was a TV programme  some years ago that pitted stars from all forms of motor cycling against each other to find best all rounder. If I recall Grass track riders came out top with Road Racers not very impressive overall

That's exactly the thing I was talking about! The only non-small oval racer who was even able to control a speedway bike was Martin Lampkin.

[steve roberts]

When I had a go at speedway I found it very difficult as It went against all my instincts having ridden road bikes. I tentatively included scrambling as a discipline because John Louis has often been quoted on how it helped him cope on rough tracks and didn't see it as a hindrance altough one couldn't class that form of motorcycling as oval based in the true sense.

Edited February 9, 2020 by steve roberts

[kevin bass]

I know Rohan Tungate isn't British but didn't he come from a motorcycle racing background in Australia before trying his luck at speedway, also Jean-Michel Bayle not British again but he was a multi world champion in Motocross, he didn't really have that much success when he joined the Moto gp paddock, in either the 250cc or 500cc classes.

[OveFundinFan]

For the 3 disciplines identified in Steve’s original post I would put Simon Wigg no 1, with Kelvin Tatum 2, and Peter Collins 3.  If Peter had won  long track world championship he would have been more of a contender for the top two.

Missing from the list is Chris Morton and Chris Harris. Neither top 3 material but worthy of a mention..

[Sings4Speedway]

16 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

For the 3 disciplines identified in Steve’s original post I would put Simon Wigg no 1, with Kelvin Tatum 2, and Peter Collins 3.  If Peter had won  long track world championship he would have been more of a contender for the top two.

Missing from the list is Chris Morton and Chris Harris. Neither top 3 material but worthy of a mention..

Whilst not troubling the top 3 but pushing hard for a place must be Paul Hurry? Multiple Grasstrack Masters Titles, a Euro Title i believe but never really made a major impact at World Longtack level. Got a few points on the shale too

[E I Addio]

17 hours ago, steve roberts said:

When I had a go at speedway I found it very difficult as It went against all my instincts having ridden road bikes. I tentatively included scrambling as a discipline because John Louis has often been quoted on how it helped him cope on rough tracks and didn't see it as a hindrance altough one couldn't class that form of motorcycling as oval based in the true sense.

Half the Ipswich team were ex- scramblers at one point, as were Arthur Browning , Tom Leadbiter  and a few others ,  including today, riders like Richard Lawson and the Worralls. I can’t think of any that started in Speedway and then moved over to an average standard I scrambling. They are totally different techniques. 

As a side point though, I remember about 6/7 years ago Peter Karlsson rode in a grass track in Kent , on a bike he borrowed from Paul Hurry. He had never sat on a grass track bike before but proved unbeatable in the heats but unfortunately the meeting was rained off before the Finals. Similarly I once saw Anders Michanek in an end of season grass track at Lydden. He absolutely whopped everybody.

I don’t think anybody has mentioned Joe Screen yet. He didn’t particularly concentrate on grass track but used to ride in big money continental meetings , which were not always ovals but some included sweeping right hand bends and jumps . By all accounts he was pretty hot stuff.

One thing I forgot to mention about Alf Hagon was that he was also winner of the famous Red Marley Hill Climb which adds to his claim to be top all rounder.

[czechhero]

Big Arthur Browning (there was actually a small one, his Dad) has to be a contender simply because of the amount of disciplines he’s ridden over the years.

Speedway

Scrambling/Motocross 

Trials

ISDT

Manx GP/Classic TT

Red Marley Hill Climb

Cadbury’s Milk Tray Advert

 

That’s some list. 

[Ghosty]

34 minutes ago, czechhero said:

Big Arthur Browning (there was actually a small one, his Dad) has to be a contender simply because of the amount of disciplines he’s ridden over the years.

Speedway

Scrambling/Motocross 

Trials

ISDT

Manx GP/Classic TT

Red Marley Hill Climb

Cadbury’s Milk Tray Advert

 

That’s some list. 

You have missed Grasstrack. Next to AKB would be Jersey's very own Marcus Bisson & as well as his motorcycling exploits you can add Karting & Rallying!